220bhp or 250bhp Turbo???

[Lemon]

Hi Everyone. In a slight dilema. I am looking at purchasing a 944 Turbo's. Has anyone owned a 220bhp and a 250bhp and can give me an opinion on pro's and con's of each. Did the 220 have ABS? Will I hancker after a LSD and bigger brakes on the 250 or is the 220 still fantastic fun. Will the turbo's handle relatively high mileage before needing a rebuild etc.Also I have seen the GURU chip kits which give the Turbo's a bit more ooommmph. Will a high mileage car put up with extra boost (if engine seems in fine condition) or is this a road to trouble??? Any comments gratefully received. Cheers Lee.

 

[Fen]

I've had a 220 and 2 250's.

The current owner of my 220 lurks on here occasionally and I have driven it as recently as last summer. TBH there is very little difference. That particular car has always felt very strong in terms of performance and the 220 has a bit less lag than the 250 so it feels as fast as my 250 did if not more so.

That 220 is a very early one with optional LSD (and Fuchs at one time) but was before ABS. That is a nice spec IMO, although when I bought it I had actually gone to see a 2.5 Lux and it was a spur of the moment, lucky purchase [&:]

Why then do I have a 250 now? Apart from the 250 being a newer car (which doesn't bother me in the slightest) they have a few advantages: LSD is standard, most have leather, drive shafts are bigger, brakes are bigger, they tend to be available in a wider range of colours, etc. Basically I wanted a metallic one with leather and I wanted a basis for tuning so the bigger components and LSD swung it for me.

It is worth bearing in mind that the Guru kits are from the US and there were hardly any 250T's sold there, whereas there were huge numbers of 220's, so the kit is designed to perform with the 220 base car. My old one is being Guru'd right now with high 130k miles.

My current car had the head off for a blown gasket at 149k and the bottom end looked good. Even the turbo was only rebuilt because it was a "what's another £400?" rebuild and it seemed like a good time to do it. Leakdown tests after repair were between 3% and 6%. 3 weeks later when I holed the sump and it came apart completely the bottom end was found to be very good - good enough to go again if I didn't intend to keep the car. Properly maintained then, with regular changes of good quality oil and if they are allowed to warm up and cool down properly they last very well and should be OK with a mild tune suc as a Guru kit.

 

[Diver944]

Fen has covered just about everything so it's down to how you want to use the car. If you are planning on tracking it at all I would recommend you plump for a 250 purely because it has the larger front brakes from a 928 S4. I have known a few people with 220's that complain about brake fade under very hard use.

Budget wise the 220's do seem to cost less to buy, and I think that for the road they would be a better bet as the lag is less. Even then lag can be reduced dramatically with a simple boost enhancer.

Before considering any off the shelf chip or a proper rolling road remap (better but costlier) then you should get the engine tested first. A compresion and leakdown test will tell you a lot about the internal condition. The engine itself should be fine for very high mileage if it's been serviced properly and had regular 6,000 mile oil changes

 

[944Turbo]

The 250 cars also have hardened 1st and 2nd gears, a gearbox oil cooler (an external finned pipe) and front brakes from the 928s4.

I know of 2 220 cars that have been fitted with a DPW and remaped by Wayne (chipwizards), which now produce just under 300bhp one of which I believe is over 150,000 miles. They have been in this state of tune for over a year and afaik, not had any adverse side effects (though the higher mileage on has had a gearbox rebuild but it was noisy before the conversion and I don't think anything failed, it was just noisy.

A survey among the titanic listers revealed that the turbo themselves may require a rebuild around ( I think the average was 120,000 but some went on for 180,000) mine has been rebuilt (around 110,000) as it had suffered an impact to the blades which upset the balance and was wearing the bearings.

I think the 220 is lighter so the brakes are OK if you want more power then you might want bigger brakes. The 250 items sometimes become available as the owners move on to big reds.

88/89 Turbos had Koni suspension fitted, 90 on the suspension carried over the spring rates but with non adjustable sachs dampers. A 968 style bridge spoiler replaced the rubber item.

There is a lot of difference between a good car and a bad one look at a lot and buy the best one you can find.

Tony (never driven a 220)

Oh and if you plan on keeping it standard I believe an S2 has 220bhp

 

[Fen]

250 also has thicker ARB's.

S2 is officially 209 or 210bhp I think. I would definitely recommend an S2 if you have no plans to modify because they are effectively a 220T but that drive nicer.

 

[John Sims]

250 has different brakes, roll bars springs and dampers - This could be because it is is heavier car or could be down to Porsche having "evolved" the car. The 250 is reputed to be based on the mods Porsche carried out on the 220 for the Turbo Cup Series.

Brakes on the 220 don't inspire confidence. When pushed hard bite goes and fade becomes apparent. This can be worked round with better pads, lines and fluid and has the advantage of lesser unsprung weight to the 250 making the car a little more nimble.

The 250 has a bigger Turbo so, whilst spool up is longer and thus lag is greater, it will pass more air and will allow a higher state of tune prior to replacement.

LSD is a must. Rear end traction under acceleration in the damp/wet is limitted even with.

You could do what I am doing - Get a 220 with ABS and LSD and "evolve" it yourself. It does become a bit of a pain though when things you think should fit necessitate the changing of half a dozen other components as well.

 

[Lemon]

Thanks for all your comments so far guys.
Very helpful.
Any idea when ABS became standard or if indeed it was on the 220bhp.
Thanks again.

 

[Fen]

1987 model year, so late 1986 registrations. All but C and very early D registrations could have ABS (but a non-abs car could be a late registration). What was the chassis number code for 87, anyone?

Basically any car with Fuchs cannot have ABS as the offset was different. Also any '88 220 car with 928 style flat face alloys hs ABS as those rims only fitted the ABS offset hubs.

I think tele dials were available to suit both the ABS and non ABS offset.

ABS cars will have a light in the dash, a pump (where is it? Slim? [8D] Inside a wheelarch, I think) and make a groaning noise as you pass 6mph for the fist time after starting up. They also have hub faces more outset in the arch, but not having them side-by-side to compare would make that a poor way to check.

 

[John Sims]

What was the chassis number code for 87, anyone?

WPOZZZ95ZHN******

WPOZZZ95ZHN****** 95=Turbo, all others were 94

WPOZZZ95ZHN****** HN= '87 model year. GN='86, JN='88 etc.

The only way to establish the model year is by the VIN. Mine was registered Christmas 87 but is an 88 model. Obviously a nice Christmas present or bonus for its original owner.[8|]

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: Fen

ABS cars will have a light in the dash, a pump (where is it? Slim? [8D] Inside a wheelarch, I think) and make a groaning noise as you pass 6mph for the fist time after starting up.

Not fair your turbo has everything MAF, deCAT, Tial Wastegaet, Big Hole in the sump!![8D]

 

[Fen]

The hole in the sump is about 6mm - technically quite small then []

 

[uktrucks]

Lee
The Maraschino Red one you looked at has ABS but no LSD [option 220 ?]according to the factory supply codes.

Allan

 

[Lemon]

Cheers Allan

 

[John Sims]

Is

Maraschino Red

like Guards Red or is it the metalic burgundy colour - as in quite rare - and comes with a rather unpleasant burgundy interior? Just wondered.

 

[cuffn]

ORIGINAL: Fen

ABS cars will have a light in the dash, a pump (where is it? Slim? [8D] Inside a wheelarch, I think) and make a groaning noise as you pass 6mph for the fist time after starting up.

Sorry to post slightly off topic but in reference to Fen's comments above on ABS, I have a 1989 2.7 Lux Auto with the ABS option and have been wondering for a while about this noise once you start moving off. When I first got the car I thought it was a binding brake disk or something but later realised it was related to the ABS the first time the ABS kicked in and a similar noise was heard. I have mentioned this noise to a local specialist and they didn't seem to know anything about it. Is this a normal trait or something that needs looking at as it can be a bit embarassing when pulling off from a garage forecourt or in front of others?

 

[uktrucks]

Yes John Maraschino Rot is the rather rare metallic burgundy but the first owner had the good taste to order sports seats in full leather, sort of biscuit/cream colour along with light trim etc. Contrasts rather nicely.

Allan

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: cuffn

Sorry to post slightly off topic but in reference to Fen's comments above on ABS, I have a 1989 2.7 Lux Auto with the ABS option and have been wondering for a while about this noise once you start moving off. When I first got the car I thought it was a binding brake disk or something but later realised it was related to the ABS the first time the ABS kicked in and a similar noise was heard. I have mentioned this noise to a local specialist and they didn't seem to know anything about it. Is this a normal trait or something that needs looking at as it can be a bit embarassing when pulling off from a garage forecourt or in front of others?

AFAIK it's normal. I think all my ABS 944's have done it (4).

 

[John Sims]

AFAIK it's normal. I think all my ABS 944's have done it

I don't think mine does. Perhaps mine is broken, or perhaps I just can't hear it over all the other strange noises it makes. [8|]

 

[Fen]

I don't think Slim's does either [][] Maybe it's a black thing...

 

[Guest]

Mine does now, still not sure if ABS works or not, will have to find a gravelly road and do some brake tests.