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3 litre 944 Turbo on track

Diver944

Active member
Just recently got in from an excellent day out at Oulton Park with Hartechs 3 litre creation and a number of Front engined fans. The morning started out very damp, misty and cold and there were several red flag stoppages early on due to people not minding the conditions. Paul F (who drives a 968 in the Porsche Club Champoinship) took to the wheel first thing and the rest of us waited whilst he warmed up the tyres and started to clear a dry line for us

When my turn came round, I could instantly feel just how smooth this engine is. A standard 2.5 Turbo can often get bogged down if you take off too leisurely, but the low down grunt from an extra 500cc removes that entirely and yields a more accomplished drive. Once used to the slippy track and able to push on a little more you can really feel the low down 'shove' that this engine gives you. Slow corners that would normally be taken in 2nd gear can easily be taken in third, giving you much more control, much less gear changing and I believe a much faster drive onto the next straight. Yes the huge power does not increase further in the higher reaches of the rev range but that could be addressed if the owner wanted to exploit this setup further.

Boost was a totally standard 0.8 bar and in 3rd and 4th gear it was hitting that well below the 3500rpm of a standard 2.5 but the most remarkable thing is the smooth way in which the boost arrives. No bang, crash, on/off wallop like the car that Porsche built back in the 80's. If you like your turbo cars to behave like that then Barry Harts 3 litre creation is not for you . This car is more like the effortless way that an S2 performs, but has 50% more power almost everywhere with no obvious lag.

Well done Baz, and thanks for a great day out. Others may now be very interested to hear that he has already tentatively started thinking about machining liners to turn any 2.5 Turbo into a 3 litre like this. I appplaud any effort to keep these wonderfully balanced cars going as long as possible, and if it brings more power at the same time as low boost relaibility then who can complain? I've taken a few photo's of the day and also have some in car footage which I'll hopefully post at the weekend when I've had a chance to edit it down and upload to the web.

Nice to also meet up with Stuart Cookson-Smith in his gorgeous red 968 and James with his slightly less gorgeous [;)] and pretty much standard 944T
 
Sounds like a brilliant day out,you are SO lucky!Looking forward to the pics and vids,really love to hear of people developing new ideas and packages for the 944 makes me feel like they have a longer future ahead[:)]
 
I wonder if itll be worth his while comissioning some pistons too (as neither S2 nor 968 items are ideal)?
 

ORIGINAL: 944 man

I wonder if itll be worth his while comissioning some pistons too (as neither S2 nor 968 items are ideal)?
That's what I thought too. Apparently Barry uses stock pistons in his custom sleeves which are coated in Nikasil, so apart from the cast pistons I would be concerned with the materials too. From what I've read, Wossner will make virtually any piston design you want, are Alusil compatible and are also not expensive. Something for the future.

Glad to hear a 'real world' account Paul. Sounds very good for many people. Also looking forward to the videos. [:D]
 
Thom, here is one of Baz's extremely comprehensive write ups on his website. He's put a lot of time and effort into documenting this so well done to Hartech.

http://www.hartech.org/docs/buyers%20guide%20web%20format%20Jan%202008%20part%204.pdf
 
Thanks Patrick, interesting read, haven't read all of it in detail but am pleasantly surprised to note Alusil is still rated pretty high among other types of material.

Hartech sure have done a lot of research here!
 
Yes they sure have. I haven't read the paper in detail either but I wonder at the use of Nikasil and Alusil together however perhaps I have misunderstood what is going on here.
 
So is this basically taking an S2 engine, taking off the 16v head and replacing with a 2.7 8v head or modified 944 turbo head? Why not retain the 16v head? Is it intended to be a more cost effective 3 ltr conversion compared with sleeving a 2.5 block?

Paul, how does it compare to your 3.2?
 
Its a 2,500cc engine sleeved up to 3,000, retaining the original 951 head. The 16v head doesnt work well with forced induction. A 2,700 base engine wouldnt need liners, only an S2/968 crankshaft to make it up to 3,000cc.

Simon
 

ORIGINAL: sawood12

So is this basically taking an S2 engine, taking off the 16v head and replacing with a 2.7 8v head or modified 944 turbo head?  Why not retain the 16v head? Is it intended to be a more cost effective 3 ltr conversion compared with sleeving a 2.5 block?

Paul, how does it compare to your 3.2?

In this instance he used a 968 block because thats what he had lying around at the time. The 2.7 head was used because it fits straight onto the 968 block and the intake and exhaust manifolds of a turbo bolt straight up to it. This is not the case with a 16V head and lots of fabrication would be needed, which was not part of this exercise.

It is very similar in power delivery to my 3.2 with lots of low down torque and flexibility making it very easy to drive, but ultimatley it is a lot slower and feels very gentle in comparison. Remember that it is totally standard in every other respect except the engine. It has an old 230k mile wastegate, old turbocharger and the standard 0.8 bar boost that drops off at the top end.

He is going to actively look at a solution so that 2.5 owners with tired engines can have them sleeved out to 3 litres instead of a standard rebuild
 
Paul, have I misunderstood: or is there a difference between what Barry has built, what youve driven and what he intends to produce?

Simon
 
ORIGINAL: 944 man
Paul, have I misunderstood: or is there a difference between what Barry has built, what youve driven and what he intends to produce?

Hartech's car shows that a 3.0 can be built for a budget equivalent to rebuilding a 2.5.
I'm sure Hartech will produce whatever the customer wants, and I would be surprised if many of them will decide not to budget for a turbo to exploit decently the potential of a 3.0 - A turbo such as a K27/8 should be a nice fitment on a 3.0 and shouldn't add much to the total bill.
 
Paul drove exactly what he describes above. As he says, this was mainly just an exercise with parts lying around more than anything in a manner of speaking. Obviously there is massive scope for more modification too.

Simon, why do you say that the 16v head isn't suited to forced induction?
 

ORIGINAL: 944 man

Paul, have I misunderstood:

I think you have a little (but don't worry we all do it occasionally [;)] )

He took out the old 2.5 engine, dropped in a 3L from a 968 with a 2.7 head and that's it

He is now going to look at sleeving 2.5's out to 3L because he has had such a response to this one car, whether he actually does it or not comes down to numbers and if it's worth it to his business. Next year they are going to be heavily involved in building race engines for the new Boxster series
 
Sleeving out a 2.5 liter engine to a 3 litre would be great. No need to restamp the engine numbers to be street legal
 
ORIGINAL: Diver944

I think you have a little (but don't worry we all do it occasionally [;)] )
He took out the old 2.5 engine, dropped in a 3L from a 968 with a 2.7 head and that's it

I see, so essentially a 968 Turbo S engine, in broad terms? I was aware that he was working on sleeving 2,479cc engines up to a nominal 3l capacity, so I presumed it was one of these which you had driven.
 
Here's some pics from Wednesday, you'd never believe it was a blue car until you see the engine bay shot at the end:

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The silver wheels are road tyres, the black wheels are Michelin Cups

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I'll try to get the in car video rendered at the weekend
 

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