924 Turbo Bonnet on 944T

[J.C944TurboMan]

Alright Scott , just to be very clear I am fully aware of the air intake process , starting with the air been drawn in by the air filter then going through the compressor wheel on the turbo , channelled through the intercooler then going onto the engine read this article
"Keeping Cool" Chttp://www.torquecars.com/tuning/aftermarket-intercooler.phpool this is a great insist into the hole ideology of cooler air produces more BHP . As for your option on making vents behind the intercooler we go back to the 968 RS Turbo with that fantastic flow Intercooler allowing a great stream line of air through the intercooler , to achieve this sort of intercooler on the 944T would require extreme moods both under bonnet and to the actual bonnet , but would be great ! I am going to get my jig saw ready see what I can achieve , does anyone know if you can buy the 968 Intercooler vent for the bonnet anywhere ? best regards J.C

 

[J.C944TurboMan]

It is an aesthetic modification and nothing more. Fit it because you like it if you wish, but don't try to persuade us that it has some higher function, because it doesn't. Also, whilst it bolts on, any early bonnet does not fit a series two 944 properly. Personally, I do not think that it suits a later car any more than boxed sill extensions or slotted rear valences.
REPLY TO 944MAN[FONT=arial black"]
944MAN I am not trying to persuade anyone of anything ! This is a forum and as such we engage in different topics of discussion ! . I have found this info from DEUTSCH NINE 944 performance tuners , I suppose they don't know what there going on about neither ! You are right the bonnet does need a little moods. So it will fit nothing major , the jet wash and you would need to have the supports for the bonnet struts welded onto the 924T bonnet , but it has a Naff old style bonnet stay on the right hand side . The plastic cover over the heater intake needs to be heated with a heat gun then close the bonnet so it take the new shape and basically that's all . I have kept the old bonnet just in case I go off the 924T on but at present I love the new look , just wish it had two Naca ducts one on each side.
Turbo RS Heat Extraction Vents for Porsche 944 Turbo (951/952) and S2 Models[FONT=lucida sans"]
Overheating issues encountered on Porsche Transaxle models:
The Porsche transaxle models are notorious for the high temperatures building up in their engine bay. This problem originally was recognized with the first series of the 924 Turbo where the heat issue led to a short lifetime of some engine components, especially the turbocharger.
Also later front-engined models suffered from high temperatures, everyone who has opened a bonnet of a 924 turbo or a 951 after having pushed the car was astonished by the heat that has built up in the engine bay during driving. This problem aggravates if the engine has been modified and/or the car is being used as a track day tool or race car.
The NACA air intake from the 924 Turbo is a popular upgrade for modified 951's but it did not convince us from a conceptual perspective: The approach of forcing more air into the engine bay via the bonnet "" the top of the car "" may cool down the interior temperature but is rather inefficient from an aerodynamic point of view as it doesn't solve the problem of getting the hot air out of the engine bay. Another disfavour is that "" installed on a 951 "" it only cools down the right half of the engine bay (header) and not the turbocharger's side which also heats up considerably.[FONT=lucida sans"]
The DEUTSCH NINE problem solution - Heat Extraction Vents:[FONT=lucida sans"]
As we did not want to compromise we started to look for another solution which concentrates more on getting the hot air out of the engine bay and therewith lowers the temperature instead of compressing more air via the upper side of the bonnet into the engine bay also producing lift at higher speeds.
Our approach is combinable with upgraded or additional air inlets installed to the front of the car so that both, supply and effluent of air can be improved considerably. A basic rule of aerodynamics says that the profile of the outlet area has to be dimensioned twice the profile of the inlet area in order to achieve efficient airflow. When applying this rule to the 951 this leads to the result that the air outlets have to be dimensioned quite large:
The air outlets offered by DEUTSCH NINE are a systematic and pragmatic solution for the above problem and also convince from an aesthetic perspective as they perfectly flow with the timeless design of the 951. The design of this performance upgrade has been specifically matched to the styling of the 951, it incorporates the two folds that run alongside the bonnet and the shape of the frame (from a top view perfectly) matches with the curvy fenders of the 951 / 944 / 924 Carrera GT. The air outlets are manufactured from FRP (Fibre Reinforced Plastic) and coated with high-quality white gel coat on the top. They are 445mm long and 250mm wide, once installed they reach 9mm into the interior of the hood and the frame stands up from the surface of the bonnet 1.5mm. One air outlet weighs approx 200g.[FONT=lucida sans"]
I think this vent option might be a bit to much ! Best regards J.C

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: TTM

ORIGINAL: sawood12
I like the idea of two small NACA ducts in the badge panel to feed the intercooler

I believe the original opening in the bumper is well located as it faces the airstream perpendicularly, so you would probably have to fit a badge panel with opening(s) big enough to drastically "cut" the airstream in order to force enough air into the IC.

I must say these badge panels with a huge opening do not quite improve the aspect of the car as far as I'm concerned ... [&:]

That's the one I have - I actually like the snarling effect, but I actively like to upset the purists with my car. I bought one of the headlingth things as well, but it's typical Lindsey nearly fits" and I couldn't be bothered tweaking it.

 

[sawood12]

That 968 vent is pretty good and functional.

In terms of NACA ducts, I was thinking more in terms of ones either side of the Porsche crest on the nose panel with ducts taking the airflow to a custom airbox lid and channelling airflow directly into the box.

Whilst Deutch Nine do some nice mods I don't agree with their assessment of 'problems' of underhood temps on the 944. My engine temp gauge very rarely gets high so the engine cooling system is more than capable of dealing with the temps. There are quite a few components in my engine bay that are 21 years old and still going strong so the temps can't be too destructive.

The main heat related problems i've heard of are the engine mount near the exhaust manifold, steering shaft related issues on RHD models and failing alternators were the cooling duct has fallen away and it is sucking up hot air from under the turbo. It is certainly not a 'problem' as far as i'm concerned, though those ducts would be pretty good at drawing air out of the engine bay, therfore sucking air up through the radiator and intercooler.

 

[Fen]

Firstly, sorry Paul.

Juan: I'd be extremely careful getting into the area of where people live and their eligibility to post as that's very close to issues of ethnicity and race, and I would be extremely disappointed if posts that could be perceived as having racist content would not result in an immediate ban from the forum. I say that for your benefit, not mine; it doesn't make a great deal of difference to me if you get yourself banned or not. Make no mistake I will be at the front of the queue to report you if you cross that particular line, as I would if anyone else did it.

I'm not going to try to discuss the bonnet or cooling with you any further, primarily as I honestly don't understand what you're saying about it. You fitted the bonnet to aid cooling, then you said the intercooler lets in a sufficient air stream and finally you quote a tuner you say you trust who has published an opinion that the NACA duct does nothing useful on a 951.

I stand by my statement that you know little in this area (again something I wrote in direct response to a question from you), as you have now made it clear that you have no understanding of the difference in temperature requirements of the inlet and exhaust sides of a turbocharged engine. As Scott and others have explained the technical concepts I won't bother to waste my time repeating it.

Lastly, am I rude? Quite probably sometimes I am. I don't claim that I am not, and I don't revert to a schoolyard "well you did it first" response when challenged on it. I don't suffer fools gladly, let's just leave it at that.

 

[944 man]

Some people cant be helped...

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

That 968 vent is pretty good and functional.

In terms of NACA ducts, I was thinking more in terms of ones either side of the Porsche crest on the nose panel with ducts taking the airflow to a custom airbox lid and channelling airflow directly into the box.

Whilst Deutch Nine do some nice mods I don't agree with their assessment of 'problems' of underhood temps on the 944. My engine temp gauge very rarely gets high so the engine cooling system is more than capable of dealing with the temps. There are quite a few components in my engine bay that are 21 years old and still going strong so the temps can't be too destructive.

The main heat related problems i've heard of are the engine mount near the exhaust manifold, steering shaft related issues on RHD models and failing alternators were the cooling duct has fallen away and it is sucking up hot air from under the turbo. It is certainly not a 'problem' as far as i'm concerned, though those ducts would be pretty good at drawing air out of the engine bay, therfore sucking air up through the radiator and intercooler.

I completely agree, Scott. In fact I made a very early decision to avoid one particular Surrey-based tuner many years ago as they started out by telling me how the cooling system had to be improved before they'd recommend doing anything to my car at all. I suspect Deutche 9 (a company I know fairly little about, hence still view with a level of scepticism as I am of the opinion a fair percentage of the 951 specialists tuners are nothing of the sort) have come up with a plausible spiel to back a mod that they find an easy way to part punters from their money.

It's not rocket science however and I have long thought of louvreing the rear passenger side of my bonnet to let hot air out as that is just common sense to my mind and can't do any harm, but I don't see it as important, at least in the UK climate.

I do like the intercooler outlet idea a lot however as it would dramatically increase air flow through the intercooler core which would clearly reduce the temperature across it. My 2 reservations would be that such a hole in the bonnet would flow so much air in a completely new way that it might upset the front end of the car at speed should it inadvertently create sufficient reduced air pressure above the badge panle and front of bonnet - something that I think it is possible as there will very likley be some degree of lift generated by moving air more quickly that way. Secondly a lot of the air that comes into the engine bay currently would leave through the hole in the bonnet so I would be a little concerned about making the rest of the bay hotter. Possibly with a badge panel such as the one Thom posted used to create an isolated air stream through the intercooler and out the bonnet hole so the original air flow through the PU remains unchanged it would work well.

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: J.C944TurboMan

Sorry Fen I was winding you up over the NZ Island you live on ! I do believe GB is better though! Anyway you do go on about NZ alot ! Bet you really miss the UK ! If you ban me from this GB Forum for giving an Expat some cheek , really sums things up ! It's Fen's Forum not a general 944 owners forum , You never said Fen how much general repairs and work you undertake on your 944's ? Or is it all theory no practical ? At least your most recent reply to me was very decent , but I am no fool Fen , Check this Turbo pic I found , nice bit of kit or what ! Who manufactures this unit Fen ? O worthy Guru ! Best regards J.C

Enough already.

 

[944 man]

ORIGINAL: J.C944TurboMan

Sorry Fen I was winding you up over the NZ Island you live on ! I do believe GB is better though! Anyway you do go on about NZ alot ! Bet you really miss the UK ! If you ban me from this GB Forum for giving an Expat some cheek , really sums things up ! It's Fen's Forum not a general 944 owners forum , You never said Fen how much general repairs and work you undertake on your 944's ? Or is it all theory no practical ? At least your most recent reply to me was very decent , but I am no fool Fen , Check this Turbo pic I found , nice bit of kit or what ! Who manufactures this unit Fen ? O worthy Guru ! Best regards J.C

Better to keep quiet and let everyone think that you're an idiot: than repeatedly post here and prove it beyond all doubt...

 

[Fen]

Juan, I rebuilt my car from front to back working alongside my indie, so not only do I know how it works but I had a dealer trained teacher to explain things to me. I also designed PAS delete and custom oil cooler installation, reworked the fuel system to remove the damper and rising rate regulator and fitted a standalone management and coil on plug CDI system. Admittedly I have no experience fitting illuminated panels where the number plate is on my car, but I think elsewhere I'm comfortable my experience is at least on a apr with yours.

For what it's worth there is very little I miss about the UK. What I do is inconsequential stuff like some specific radio and TV shows and certain food items, and it is massively outweighed by any number of things I prefer here. It's not for everyone though.

 

[J.C944TurboMan]

Fair play Fen , sounds like you really do know what your going on about when it comes to the 944's , I have had several Porsche's now and I used to send them into Specialist to have them serviced at expensive rate's as you well know . With this 944T I have taken the plunge and DIY'ed all work needed , self taught and really proud of my achievments so far , stripped front end new bumpers , spot lamps ,indicators , replaced all tensioners and belts , new water pump , removed aircon , fitted new bracket for alternator , removed cam box new gasket fitted , rebuilt turbo new seals bearing etc. , removed power steering and fitted manual rack , anti roll bar bushes , new wastegate fitted and decat exhaust pipe , replaced exhaust manifold , removed cruise control , fitted new clutch slave , replaced starter motor , fitted front splitter , replaced flue lines , rear suspension , replaced one of the drive shaft cap seal , and inner boot, changed all fluids ,replaced the ECU's for some upgraded chipped one's , removed steering wheel with air bag changed stalks to suit , replaced seats , and sunroof cogs, replaced rear lights and fitted rear panel and new number plate holder, fitted rear spacers , replaced side mirror and or course the contraversal 924T bonnet . Did it all on my back in my single garage with no one to help me , I think the worst was the clutch slave cylinder , did not want to bleed up ! nightmare . A good 2 months work in my spare time but enjoyed every minute and now enjoying the fruits or my hard labour , Let me know if you need any foods you miss sending over Fen , I will send as a truce between us if you acccept Fen , best regards J.C

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: J.C944TurboMan

Fair play Fen , sounds like you really do know what your going on about when it comes to the 944's , I have had several Porsche's now and I used to send them into Specialist to have them serviced at expensive rate's as you well know . With this 944T I have taken the plunge and DIY'ed all work needed , self taught and really proud of my achievments so far , stripped front end new bumpers , spot lamps ,indicators , replaced all tensioners and belts , new water pump , removed aircon , fitted new bracket for alternator , removed cam box new gasket fitted , rebuilt turbo new seals bearing etc. , removed power steering and fitted manual rack , anti roll bar bushes , new wastegate fitted and decat exhaust pipe , replaced exhaust manifold , removed cruise control , fitted new clutch slave , replaced starter motor , fitted front splitter , replaced flue lines , rear suspension , replaced one of the drive shaft cap seal , and inner boot, changed all fluids ,replaced the ECU's for some upgraded chipped one's , removed steering wheel with air bag changed stalks to suit , replaced seats , and sunroof cogs, replaced rear lights and fitted rear panel and new number plate holder, fitted rear spacers , replaced side mirror and or course the contraversal 924T bonnet . Did it all on my back in my single garage with no one to help me , I think the worst was the clutch slave cylinder , did not want to bleed up ! nightmare . A good 2 months work in my spare time but enjoyed every minute and now enjoying the fruits or my hard labour , Let me know if you need any foods you miss sending over Fen , I will send as a truce between us if you acccept Fen , best regards J.C

You forgot to pump up the tyres. [].

 

[944 man]

ORIGINAL: J.C944TurboMan

Sorry 944 man ,Don't understand your point but suppose there is a meaning to your posts too ! Thank you and God bless you !

For the hard of thinking: it means shut up because youre making a fool of yourself.

 

[J.C944TurboMan]

Seems to be your the fool and a very ignorant person , If this sort of post is your contribution to the forum then who needs to shut up !

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: Fen
That's the one I have - I actually like the snarling effect, but I actively like to upset the purists with my car.

Well my friend, let's avoid using vague and subjective terms such as "purist" which probably suggests more about people using them than so called "purists" themselves.
I did not mean to offend anyone with my comment and I'm sincerely sorry it made you wince.

Now trying to get back on topic - did you fit this badge panel alone or along with other "upgrades" ? Just wondering if it brought any improvement alone.

 

[Diver944]

Paul M has already issued a gentle warning. The next post having a pop at individuals (however minor and from whomever) will simply be deleted.

We have to do this so rarely that the delete key is actually very dusty, please don't make me dust it off

 

[Fen]

Absolutely no offence taken Thom; I wasn't even intending to suggest you were a purist though I see it sounded that way.

My plan was to get a big intercooler to fit under it, but as the car only lasted half of the first outing after it was painted I didn't get that far. I like the panel because most people think it's ugly and it removed the last remaining Porsche badge on the car as well as because it would have a functional benefit*.

* I have seen test data from a Mini Cooper S where the stock slot has been replaced by one with a raised lip to catch air and it improves flow and reduced intercooler temps. I appreciate it's a different car and on the Mini the lip sits proud of the bonnet, but I think the same would hold true.

 

[John Sims]

My impression of the badge panel mod is it is favoured by US 944 racers. One assumes they wouldn't bother if it didn't work.

Although ugly, logic suggests, it works better as it sits up into the air stream and thus achieves a ram effect - as also confirmed by Fens Mini experience.

While holes in the badge panel (a la 924 Carrera GT) are better than no holes at all there will perhaps be a level of air flow across them compared to the direct air flow into the scoop design. At worst this surface flow could introduce a vacuum - Remember, as a kid, puttting your head out of the window of a fast moving car. If you opened you mouth while facing sideways, the air flowing across your mouth would suck the air from your lungs.

With regard to NACA ducts: My understanding is the physics and geometry of them is very complex. A well designed duct can be incredibly efficient. By the same token, a badly designed NACA duct can be as much good as no duct at all.

 

[edh]

Steve Bassington stuck a big bonnet vent & some ducting behind his 951 IC on his orange 924 turbo sprint car & measured some big drops in ACT.

some pics & info here

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=22610

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?p=214348

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?p=190040

 

[John Sims]

That is outrageously sexy (IMHO).

I do take on board Fens concerns regarding strange aerodynamic characteristics though. As is evident in F1 aerodynamics is something of a black art and a small change in one area could well have a knock on effect that wouldn't necessarily be obvious.

A small O/T diversion for the OP - Why all the different fonts and colours? It seems most of us find the default quite adequate. I admit I spent a time when I would change all my posts to dark blue but, once it became apparent it was rubbing some people up the wrong way, I stopped.

Granted different fonts and colours can be used to denote EMPHASIS, but if used indiscriminately can cause confusion.