944 as an everyday sensible car???

[sawood12]

Point taken about the Clio and the Pug since I havn't driven either so have nothing to compare but their reputations do preceed them. However I do think your being a bit harsh on the poor old Cupra R. It's times on tracks in comparisons i've read with the Civic Type R - a pretty well respected hot hatch which should be on par with the 306 and Clio(?), the Cupra R isn't that far behind.

It seems that Porsche are not the only car maker that can take a car that breaks every rule in the "How to build a good sportscar" manual and make it work!

 

[Fen]

To be fair I think the CTR, when it was launched, received reviews along the lines of "fantastic track suspension set-up, far too harsh for British roads". That's received wisdom in this case though - even I have standards and wouldn't consider a bread van with a 2CV style gearstick as a daily driver so I've never driven one.

 

[pvernham]

Picked up Evo magazine last night and they have an article comparing an M6 with a Clio Trophy. Haven't read it properly yet but the gist of the article seems to be that the Trophy is a match for the M6 through the twisty bits.

I know the 944 is lighter than an M6 etc. etc.

It does seem that some 'every day' cars are becoming amazingly accomplished and that a sports car driver cannot take it for granted that they will see off an aggressively driven hot hatch or sports saloon.

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: pvernham

.......It does seem that some 'every day' cars are becoming amazingly accomplished and that a sports car driver cannot take it for granted that they will see off an aggressively driven hot hatch or sports saloon.

My point entirely. And, with a conventional car, you can get insurance from main stream companies; not have to meet some shady character up a dark alley with nothing to protect you other than a suitcase filled with used £5 notes. And, when your pride and joy is stolen, or damaged, it will take more than some birds mess on the bonnet before the insurers write it off and offer you little more than the bus fare home.

Also, you will be accepted socially again and not branded a "Porsche Driver"; a stigma almost as bad as a "BMW Driver" but "BMW Drivers" are so thick skinned that they don't realise they are universally hated.

So in answer to the question "Is a Porsche an every day sensible car?" the answer is........No!

A Porsche is a car you buy because you want a Porsche. They are as sensible as buying an expensive watch, when you can get a perfectly good time piece for under £50. You buy a expensive watch because you want an expensive watch, you buy a Porsche for the same reason.

Unless......you buy a Turbo. Now a Turbo has the potential to provide 300+ bhp for relatively little money. That isn't sensible but, if speed floats your boat, it is about the best bang per buck you are likely to find (and that still ain't cheap).[]

 

[sib8292]

Dave

I have driven a 944S2 daily, for the last year. Its a really good buy if you get a good one (as mine seems to be). Depreciation is minimal and if you find a reliable motor engineer can have most repairs at a sensible cost; leaving the more complex stuff to a Porsche Independent. (not that I have needed either since I have had my car).

How to find a good one? Try the Porsche club mag I suggest and be choosy. All the usual things about buying a used car.

Oh and don;'t worry about things falling off; they don't

Happy hunting

 

[Guest]

I agree with most of the comments. An unmodified Porsche 944 is perfectly usable every day and mainstream insurance companies are happy to insure them (my 944 S2 is insured with Egg, who are underwritten by the ubiquitous UK Insurance Limited (who are actually part of the Royal Bank of Scotland I believe)). Insurance costs are actually less than an equivalent performance new hot hatch; I've owned both a Honda bread van (CTR) and a 944 S2, and the latter is cheaper to insure.

Regarding the differences between the two, the "2CV style gearstick" was one of the best things about the CTR - the knob is close to the wheel for quick changes, and gear change is one of the best on any car at any price. I also think the CTR had better mechanical grip due to lower profile modern tyres and the harder suspension setup, but it wasn't fun to drive on bumpy roads, and it obviously has less traction out of corners. Round a track it would probably be about neck and neck with a 944S2; straight line performance is also similar - the Porsche wins up to 30, but the CTR has a slightly better 0-100 time. The 944 wins on looks, seating position, price, depreciation, torque, steering feel (by miles!) and B-road handling, whereas the CTR wins on turn-in, practicality, brakes and drive-train. The Porsche is definitely my favourite of the two, but no surprises there!

Tom

 

[_DDtB_]

argh.... now I'm getting more confused....

maybe if I sold the lotus and the merc... the sensible thing to do would be to buy a 13-15k boxster...?!??! It's sensible and trackable too ... isn't it?!?!?

Might be a nice compromise between the lotus and merc.... hmmmm....

depends how much the evil woman and her solicitor bleed me for I suppose....grrrr[][][]

 

[sawood12]

I wouldn't be too hasty with that. A work collegue of mine who has had a few 924's and 944's sold his 944 Turbo for a Boxter S (previous model) because he wanted something that was of similar perfomance if not better to his turbo and was a bit disspointed. He reckoned the 944 Turbo is a match for the Boxter and on the limit more progressive and controllable which meant he was more confident in the 944 and ultimately got more fun out of it. Controversial point of view I know, and I doubt there are many that would share it, but at the end of the day it's all down to personal choice and what sort of feel you want out of the car - he just preferred the characteristics of the 944 and felt more confident in it. He's got rid of the Boxter S now and looking for a good 3.2 Carrera because he wants to test his metal with it's challenging handling!

Sounds like you need to get an extensive programme of test driving different cars to help you make your mind up! You'll have to let us know how you get on.

 

[Fen]

I can't believe the Boxtser S is as good as a match for the 944 Turbo. Having driven various (986, which is what we're talking about here) Boxsters around Thruxton I can tell you the 2.7 was no fun as it has nowhere near enough power to challenge the chassis and the S was only getting there. A Boxster Turbo S is what they should be making. For £12k you'd be looking at a ropey early 2.5 which I'd say should be avoided like it has the plague. Carrera 3.2 handling isn't what it's made out to be. Maybe the early short wheelbase 911 was evil but even by the time of my 1976 Carrera 3 they were OK and the Carrera 3.2 I had I was comfortable coming off roundabouts on opposite lock in on the way home from buying it (after 400 miles admittedly). I didn't drive like that all the time of course (it was 3am on that occasion and no other cars around) but I only felt I overstepped the mark once and that was in snow when it takes a looooonnnnnngggggg time for that weight to stop going sideways. I did a trackday in it at Knockhill and I was showboating with big angles of powerslide there. Mine had an LSD, mind.

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: tedbakerman

... the sensible thing to do would be to buy a 13-15k boxster...?!??!

No! As I understand, Boxster (and 996) have a big problem with the bottom end destroying rear main seals with big repair costs and no real long term fix.

How negative do I sound? I agree with all the comments above. My issues with 944 insurance relate entirely to modified cars (a problem which is by no means exclusive to the 944). Standard 944s are very reasonable to insure, relative to the performance they provide. Depreciation is almost non existent and, if bought well, could cost you no more than any servicing and parts over the period you have the car.

As you look toward a period of being able to "play the field", I have little doubt that you will pull better with a Porsche key ring than most other things [8D]. A "Classic", and less flash Porsche, will demonstrate you to be more interesting with perhaps a level of eccentricity which could be appealing. Also, use of a discontinued Classic is almost totally classless and relatively flash free. Any modern car (aside a new Ferrari or Aston) is always going to have the "..very nice, but a xxxx would have been better.." issue. Furthermore, getting a "Classic" can be seen as more of a Churchillian gesture to the ex than having been forced into parting with your other vehicles for something mundane.

 

[sawood12]

Just come back from a B&Q run. The old girl easily swallowed up six packets of laminate flooring plus all the associated gubbins. Not a particularly voluminous cargo but damn heavy. Despite the extra weight she still had enough poke to see off a chav-driven TT on the way back as well! How's that for practicality!

 

[colin129]

I think I ought to put in my 2 pen'orth

I have owed my S2 for 8 1/2 years and taken the mileage from 60K to 162K (so far). At a recent visit to JZ, who I would heartily recommend, I asked what is coming up with that mileage and they said nothing, as long as I service and maintain it properly.

It is my daily driver and I still feel special, and priviledged, every time I get in it even after all this time. I have toyed with replacing it on several occasions but what I really want requires an extra £20K (993 Carrera 4, if you are wondering).

I have been to St Tropez (twice), the Vosges in eastern France (3, 4 , 5 times I can't count, my finacee's parents live there), round the Nuerburing, to Le Mans. I love it, I love it, I love it, and its far more reliable than a woman!!!!!

It costs £1K or so a year for maintenance, a solid 28 mpg (over 30 on the European runs).

I can not recommend it highly enough, BUT hold on there, £5K? Be very careful at that price, unless you buy mine, because I know it is top notch mechanically. Its not for sale at the moment, inless you have a 993 Carerra 4 to swop!!

Buy one well and never look back, but keep your eyes wide open and expect to spend a few quid to get it right (I remember spending over £3K on my first ever service!!). FSH by a specialist who knows what they are doing, lots of bills for work etc etc, big bills for regular maintenance, once a year, means the owner cares.

Good luck

 

[John Sims]

And Beaky, who is always getting things replaced, is looking forward to a belt change and fuel and brake pipes on his next service. If it is under £1.5K I think we will be doing quite well. I was going to go for a clutch and LR engine mounts while I was about it but I feel that will have to wait for next year so that I can spend over £1.5K on then as well. £3K in six months, easily done. Then there is the replacement turbo and inter-cooler to factor in, and the respray to the front. Front tyres are looking like they will be changed within the next 6 months as well and I would like to redo the front seats, then there are the little rust patches that need addressing before too long......

So, if I was to give you Beaky tomorrow, who is cared for to excess, I can pretty much guarantee he will cost you between £3k and £4k within the next 12 months. Sadly, if I were to sell him in 12 months, with all of the above done, I doubt I would get £3K more for him.

Just for a laugh, and in the interests of club membership information, I think we should all do spread sheets for 3 years of 944 ownership showing exactly what we have spent. Three years seems like a reasonable time as it should encompass at least one belt change, discs and pads, and any remedial works from previous owners neglect.

There are good cars about though. When I sold my Lux, it had been looked after with the same enthusiasm as Beaky and just about everything had been done. That would have wanted next to nothing spent on it for two years - it cost me money to get it to that stage which I didn't recover in the sale though. If (when the list of things to do on Beaky is complete) when I get bored with Beaky (or he frustrates me just once too often) I have little doubt someone will get a spectacular bargain.

 

[Guest]

Welcome, mate.

Unfortunately, my wife won't leave me, but I'll keep trying.

Anyway, I changed from a 911 3.2 to a 944T and have never been happier. So much so that I can't wait until Porsche brings out a big front engined, RWD model.

Re: the 944 - it's a perfect choice. See below:



(1) 944T, 1350kg, 220 bhp = 163 bhp / ton
Cost of car = £5,000
Therefore, each bhp/ton costs £31


(2) 993TT, 1500kg, 408bhp = 272bhp/ton
Cost of car = £40,000 for a good un
Therefore, each bhp/ton costs £147

(3) J-reg Primera, 1300kg, 110 bhp = 85 bhp/ton
Cost of car = £500 maybe
Therefore, each bhp/ton costs £5.88

(4) Cayenne Turbo, 2,500kg, 450bhp = 180 bhp / ton
Cost of car = £70,000
Therefore, each bhp/ton costs £388

Conclusions:
(1) old hp is cheaper
(2) you can't compare apples and oranges because the subjective feel of the thing is totally ignored
(3) I need to get out more!

 

[chrisr]

ORIGINAL: colin129

I think I ought to put in my 2 pen'orth

I have owed my S2 for 8 1/2 years and taken the mileage from 60K to 162K (so far).  At a recent visit to JZ, who I would heartily recommend, I asked what is coming up with that mileage and they said nothing, as long as I service and maintain it properly.

It is my daily driver and I still feel special, and priviledged, every time I get in it even after all this time.  I have toyed with replacing it on several occasions but what I really want requires an extra £20K (993 Carrera 4, if you are wondering).

I have been to St Tropez (twice), the Vosges in eastern France (3, 4 , 5 times I can't count, my finacee's parents live there), round the Nuerburing, to Le Mans.  I love it, I love it, I love it, and its far more reliable than a woman!!!!!

It costs £1K or so a year for maintenance, a solid 28 mpg (over 30 on the European runs).

I can not recommend it highly enough, BUT hold on there, £5K? Be very careful at that price, unless you buy mine, because I know it is top notch mechanically.  Its not for sale at the moment, inless you have a 993 Carerra 4 to swop!!

Buy one well and never look back, but keep your eyes wide open and expect to spend a few quid to get it right (I remember spending over £3K on my first ever service!!). FSH by a specialist who knows what they are doing, lots of bills for work etc etc, big bills for regular maintenance, once a year, means the owner cares.

Good luck

Colin - dam fine post if I may say so. Ive had my S2 for 6 years less than you but you're right every time I get in and drive the car the feeling that you're not just driving a bland/boring/hot hatch but something that can be used as a daily driver but a little different ( but doesn't that apply to all 944 owners [8D] ).

Im also harbouring for a 993 ( 2, 4 or S ( In my dreams ) ) but finding another £20k to get rid of the S2 at the moment is simply to much.

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: chrisr
... every time I get in and drive the car the feeling that you're not just driving a bland/boring/hot hatch but something that can be used as a daily driver but a little different ( but doesn't that apply to all 944 owners [8D] ).

In a word "no". Unless you like transmission backlash and (sometimes monstrous) clutch judder. Hopefully it will settle down but I doubt it.

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: John Sims

Just for a laugh, and in the interests of club membership information, I think we should all do spread sheets for 3 years of 944 ownership showing exactly what we have spent.

I've been doing that on Pistonheads for both of mine over the past seven years and it is quite frightening how it all adds up. I think these links will work:

http://www.pistonheads.com/members/showCar.asp?carId=6921

http://www.pistonheads.com/members/showCar.asp?carId=6922

The Turbo is running at nearly twice the annual maintenance of the S2 but then it is tracked a lot (and those figures dont include the impending rebuild and Turbo upgrade [] )

 

[chrisr]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

ORIGINAL: John Sims

Just for a laugh, and in the interests of club membership information, I think we should all do spread sheets for 3 years of 944 ownership showing exactly what we have spent.

I've been doing that on Pistonheads for both of mine over the past seven years and it is quite frightening how it all adds up. I think these links will work:

http://www.pistonheads.com/members/showCar.asp?carId=6921

http://www.pistonheads.com/members/showCar.asp?carId=6922

The Turbo is running at nearly twice the annual maintenance of the S2 but then it is tracked a lot (and those figures dont include the impending rebuild and Turbo upgrade [] )

Paul - not seen any of that before - dam interesting re overall costs over a long period. Really does bring the whole perspective re costs into the equation, whilst its a Porsche when you take into account the small drops in depreciation and running costs they really are dam good value for money on the whole , unless rebuilding the whole car from the ground up / modifying is in the remit [] reason why im sticking with the S2 !

 

[sawood12]

You've got to distinguish between cost of regular maintenance and needed repairs and cost of upgrades. I've had my turbo for about 13 months or so and 7500 miles and in terms of pure maintenance i've spent £230 major service, £360 fix oil leak and charge A/C, £150 nearly new AFM, £90 tailgate and bonnet struts, £105 steering u'j's, £90 MOT (rear brake pipes) so a total of £1025.

For mods i've spent £560 17" wheels & tyres, £517 dual port wastegate incl fitting, £360 ESS 6"x9" backbox (mouthwateringly sexy), £60 968 castor bushes and £100 M030 ARB's (2nd hand) so £1597 on mods and sods- and that's not including the few grands worth of brake, suspension and other engine mods I have on my wishlist. So I wouldn't want to distort the true cost of ownership to anyone by including my own personal fiddling fetish. I reckon that the cost of ownership of a Turbo easily compares to the cost of a modern hot hatch.

I too have a hankering for a 964/993 but I just can't image they would be that much more enjoyable to drive for the extra cash they cost. They certainly are not as cheap to maintain. I think the 944 enjoys a unique position - it's not the most glamarous of Porshe models therefore doesn't command the costs but is easily as much fun to drive and a damn sight cheaper to run - but don't tell anyone or they'll all want one.

However in the pipeline I reckon i've got a clutch, cylinder head gasket and a set of belts to save for. And as a bit of preventive maintenance I might even change the turbo at some stage after reading scary stories about turbo's letting go and sending bits of metal into cylinders therefore righting off engine blocks. I sometimes think prevention is better than cure and cetainly cheaper in the long run.

Crikey - I wish I hadn't just added all that up!

 

[John Sims]

That is a cracking system of keeping track on costs, I fear I would frighten myself, but conceed that my upgrade bill is much higher. I did start with a cheaper car though.

I loved the bit about the nit getting sucked into the turbo. That's the trouble with nits, they can't be trusted.