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944 Chip Design.

barks944

New member
So, Ive been looking at tuning my 944 8v recently. Last night I took a late model DME apart to have a look at the gubbins inside. I was then chatting with some friendly ppl about the chip inside and what I would need to re-program it. One of the ppl had some gear to erase and program the chip in the 944's DME and it seems like he is willing to lend it to me. This would enable me put my car on the dyno and re-map it myself, as well as maybe putting a couple of tweaks in like FR wilks idle shudder fix.

Anyway I carried on chatting to the guy, who it seemed was rather handy with electronics and I mentioned the idea of creating a device which would allow re-mapping in real time on the dyno. He didnt seem to think it was much of a problem....So I had a chat with him for a while and it seems he would be interested in creating such a device assuming there is a market for it.

What I was thinking about making would:

1. Plug into the 944's DME without modifying it.
2. Run the original bosch code (maybe slightly modified.)
3. Allow the fuel maps to be modified in real time.

Any interest or suggestions on features would be appreciated.

Tom
 
I hate to say it, but this sounds like one of those jobs that is bound to work out quite expensive even if that wasn't the original plan. The piggyback could be made quite simply I'm sure, but you'd also need to install wideband to be sure you're going to be safe when you make your adjustments. Desoldering the original chip on an early 944 is going to be beyond most people, so for a manufactured product that'll probably be the major stumbling block. I'm not sure if the Vitesse piggyback can be fitted to the early ECU, but the product and software are very well thought through so that is what you could be competing with. Given that if 944's gets any cheaper they'll be free with pack of cornflakes I think finding a market for hardware that will cost as much (if not more!) than the car is going to be tricky, especially with the limited performance improvements I'd expect this to bring.

I'm not trying to discourage you, if you've got the money and energy then go for it, but I'm constantly trying to develop new products (for audio, not cars) and it's very easy for what seems like a great idea to run away with itself and result in major hassles and costs [:)] (doesn't normally stop me, but then I'm a bit thick [;)]).

Btw Eprom writers are easily available and dirt cheap, I got one on ebay for about £30 last year.
 
you wouldnt need wideband installed if the unit was designed with "tuning on a dyno" in mind as the dyno would provide that functionality..

or have i missed something ?

I say go for it if it can be done and for a reasonable cost. The programmable (plugs into laptop - natch) ignition on my race bike came in at under £100 and whilst there's little (if any) benefit to peak power, the throttle response and midrange power is outstanding compared to stock, and thats just getting the ignition curve right, not evern 3d mapped with a TPS yet. Main advantage has been the ability to run more extreme cam profiles/airbox setup and not end up with a peaky and hard to use engine.
 
ORIGINAL: rd944

you wouldnt need wideband installed if the unit was designed with "tuning on a dyno" in mind as the dyno would provide that functionality..

or have i missed something ?

I agree, if you're only using a dyno for mapping then you're spot on, although you could argue that mapping on the road with wideband could work out cheaper in the long run depending upon the cost of hiring the dyno for a day (which I'd guess is a reasonable time scale if you're not a pro).

I assume the £100 unit for your bike may be mass produced and have development costs spread across many thousands of units throughout the world (I'm guessing here) and possibly will be compatible with other bikes that share a similar setup. I really think the market for what is proposed is going to be quite small which means it'll be more difficult to get a decent return, which is fine if you're doing it as a hobby where a loss is acceptible but not if its going to be a business for any of the parties involved. I suspect by the time you've spent half an hour soldering in the piggyback into a customers ECU and got postage both ways you could already be at the £50 level before selling any actual hardware/software.

It sounds like a have a real downer on this, that isn't true, I say go for it if you have your eyes wide open (I'm developing some hi-end speakers at the moment which are unlikely to recover development costs, but I'm doing it because I want to and will personally wear the costs).
 
My intention was that it would be a cheap aid to tuning on a dyno. Further developments could lead to wideband sensor for on the road tuning. I also dont see why the car couldn't auto tune for a set AFR. You could for example set a different AFR for the throttle positions and have the DME tune itself on the road...Run lean at low/mid throttle and rich at high throttle.

I think what I will do in the short term is attempt to adapt the DME for a MAF sensor and remap it. Should be an interesting project for me and should yield a good return.
 
This may sound a little backwards but anyhow here I go...

The porsche 944 already calculates air mass using the AFM and the air temp sensor. This means I cant plug in a device that outputs a voltage representation of air mass as the 944's DME will convert this signal into another value using its air temperature sensor. This means I cant use any MAF sensor that outputs air MASS without modifying the DME's code or perhaps manipulating the temp sensor. Another Idea would be to use a hot wire MAF which has a temperature compensator in it to convert back to air flow before sending a signal to the DME. The 944's DME can then happily re-calculate the air mass with no detrimental effect. This would give the improved throttle response of a hot wire air flow sensor without the hassle of changing the DME's code. Does anyone know of a MAF that would fit this description and would be suitable for use on the 944. I believe the 944 outputs a controlled 5v to the air sensor and recieves a signal back from the AFM in the range of 0-4.5v. It uses the ratio of these voltages to calculate air flow.

I think I read somwhere that at high air flows the 944 DME calculates air flow based on RPM and throttle position. Anyone know anything about this?

Edit:

Perfect: http://www.carlton24v.co.uk/afmmaf.htm
 
It's well worth a search on Rennlist, there have been a few MAF conversions using off the shelf parts detailed there.
 
Do you know how clever the DME in the 944 is? Does it just take the temp and air flow and inject? I'm hoping it isnt too clever and doesnt do any kind of processing before it decides what to inject....

Edit:

Nice car by the way Pete, just had a browse of your website.
 
Thanks Tom.
As far as I'm aware it's a very simple setup. After my last post I had a quick search on Rennlist and came up with this Link which I hope might help.

 
Yeah had a read of that the other day. Seems to tail off later on iirc. Interestingly it seemed the original poster of that thread got decent results with no signal conversion. I'd imagine that's all well and good until it gets to the extremes of temperatures...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BRAND-NEW-AUDI-A4-1-8T-MASS-AIR-FLOW-MAF-SENSOR-97-ON_W0QQitemZ130273430668QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item130273430668&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72:1299|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318

I was thinking of that one. Looks like its analogue. Might have a ring round tommorrow.
 
As an aside, when I went to one dyno I had a wideband in my car, but using his sensor up the tailpipe he was getting some different readings than I was. Who, or what, to trust? My wideband bung is just on the downpipe whereas his sensor was a couple feet up the exhaust. Mine was new. How many cars had his sensor been up and for how many dyno pulls? How often do they replace their sensors? Do they degrade over time and give incorrect readings? I don't know, but thought it worth mentioning.

BTW barks944, this was the reply I got from my friend with the 944 na about his cam:
"my cam is off a 924S, part number 944 105 155 09. I did not dyno it but Porsche spec book says torque is 210nm at 4500rpm and for a 944 was 205nm at 3000rpm. BHP for this 924S is 160bhp at 5900 and the 944 is 163bhp at 5800."

Patrick
 
Who knows whose is most accurate..Id imagine they need to be calibrated like any sensor. How big were the differences?
 
Bear in mind that the audi 1.8Ts in the applications listed for that MAF are only 150-180 bhp and the MAF in my A4 with that engine was significantly smaller diameter than an S2's inlet trunking. Probably OK on an 8v but I think you'd create even more of a restriction than the existing 'barn door' flap arrangement on the 16V/turbo cars with that particular unit, although that's not to say that you couldn't find a suitable MAF somewhere else.

I have had a look round this week after my S2's ECU went dead due to water ingress (now dried out and working again) and I have to say that if it came to it I'd probably go with something along the lines of megasquirt as below:

http://wiki.diyefi.co.uk/Converting_a_Motronic_ECU_Box_to_Megasquirt

This would lose the AFM altogether and run based on manifold pressure and throttle angle. You'd need some rewiring plus a throttle pot and lambda sensor but it'd be reprogrammable in situ and the airflow meter question would be moot. Plus if you got really enthusiastic you could run a coil pack and not have to pay the Porsche tax on dizzy caps and plug leads (£80 + vat for plug leads??!)

Anyone know of anyone who's done this? I guess the E30 boys should have sorted out most of the issues by now..
 
That looks like a better approach - I wonder if any of the racers have thought of hiding a megasquirt inside a Motronic ECU?
 
I've been following this thread with great interest, it would be nice to see someone finally install one of these Megasquirts into a 944 of any variant. Lot's of people over the years have said how easy and cheap it is, but to date I don't think we've seen a forum member actually do it.

Electronics and wiring are the one thing I am most reluctant to do myself on cars - just those pictures of a gutted Motronic case are enough to give me the shivers. I let Jon Mitchells guys physically install my vitesse piggyback because of this trepidation, but the actual tuning of it was dead easy.
 
Thanks for the suggestions on the MAF. Im going to measure the diameter of the 944 AFM and get one similar. Probably from a 2.5-3.0 vs, ford or somthing like that.

Im also interested in megasquirt. Ive done quite a bit of reading about. Plus if I get one on the 8v if i get a turbo further down the line ill move the megasquirt over to that. I got in contact with one of the suppliers of pre-build megasquirts in the uk. One of the main issues is a diffence in how the 944 measures engine RPMs. I think a new timing wheel would be needed, maybe some of the later model 944's dont need this.

I would like to have a play with the motronic unit before I move onto the megsquirt though. Ive gathered a fair bit of info on it and im quite intereste now.

I also got an email from John Miledge in the states about cam's. Prices from him sare about £600. He stated that the price was due to poor exchange rates for the blanks he gets from germany. I'll see if he will give up his source and maybe get one direct from supplier and get a uk company to profile it for me. Should reduce the cost.
 
Tom, a work colleague of mine that you know (Tom) mentioned you were doing this, so I thought I would have a look. You seem to be at the same place I was about a year ago when I was going to do the same to my Lux. If I remember I think I found out that one off a Ford worked well but can't remember which one!! Will try and dig out the info, but think it's on my old dead laptop.

Will keep an eye on this with interest. Also if you need any parts to experiment on let me know as I still have a shed full of Lux parts, including a full engine.
 
Hey homesea,

Info would be good if you have it, was going to go round some breakers yards this weekend but after sat night sunday was a write off [:'(]. Did you go with tom to the welsh rally?

I was thinking about what ppl have said about the 944 loosing power when putting a MAF sensor on. From what I can tell at full throttle the DME ignores the AFM and injects based on RPM and temperature only. I wonder how they managed too loose power then, assuming that they put their foot down?!?

Tom
 
ORIGINAL: barks944

I wonder how they managed too loose power then, assuming that they put their foot down?!?

To put it very simply, an engine will only make more power if it can burn more air and fuel in the correct ratio. When the flap of the AFM is fully open and the car is at full throttle then the engine can only suck in the requisite amount of air that it's displacement will allow.

The same car with a MAF at full throttle will not be able to suck in any extra air than the AFM car, therefore achieves the same power (or less if it hasn't been configured properly). At part throttle and lower RPM's then the MAF 'should' be more responsive and smoother because you are not waiting for the flap to move out of the way.
 
If it was my reference to the 911 & PW test of the SciVision MAF on a Lux you refer to I think it loss about 0.4bhp. Not significant in other words, but also not a gain. There were also poor running issues as I recall, but also note the supplier sorted it out by doing something undesclosed in their workshop and it showed up with a small gain and improved drivability. Of course the key benefit of the back-to-back nature of the test was lost when there was a period of poorer running in the middle and who's to know if it ran better than stock or just better than badly after it was fixed?

Later cars don't have any more useful triggers than the Lux, but they might well have different ones. I know the Turbo and S2 use different systems for example. My expereince comes from a '90 Turbo, but I can't see how a Lux would be anything other than less advanced, and the key problem is that the DME doesn't use a reference sensor based on the camshaft like the majority of standalone systems need, so you need to fit something on the camshaft as a trigger. It's not the end of the world to do, especially if you go the extra mile and ditch the need for a distributor (as you have the end of the camshaft to play with then), but it still needs to be done. I also had to fit a speed sensor the EMS could use as it didn't support the oddball one the Turbo has as OE.

I tried mapping on the road, using a management system that supports dynamic mapping using a wideband sensor. It's not as easy as it sounds, and it's generally not possible to do the ignition (there are a couple of devices that might help such as a spark plug with a pressure sensor in it, but I doubt it would be worth the expenditure). I got a map on my car that was safe from the perspective of the engine not destroying itself, but that ran like a bag of bolts before I decided to get an expert involved.

We then mapped it "properly" on the road using a wideband in the tailpipe and det cans, and trust me doing that in 4th gear in a car that will hit close to 150mph at the redline of that gear on the public road on a wet day was no fun whatsoever. No way could you do it by yourself and no way would I do it again that way. In fact had I known what we were going to do I wouldn't have done it that way in the first place as it was both highly illegal and arguably dangerous, the only mitigation being the road was very quiet.

That map was good when warm but still ran badly when cold, and it wasn't impressively quick. When it was dyno'd on the "Rollers of Truth" it made 306bhp, which is abysmal for a Turbo with the mods it had. I then removed the ISV and fitted coil on plug CDI and had it mapped truly properly on the Rollers of Truth and it came up to 359bhp and ran & idled sweetly. Quite an improvement over 306 and I think clearly in the main attributable to the map. In truth it was still disappointing but at least I was at last confident it was giving all it was able to without improving the breathing. As an aside it blew itself to bits before any more development happened, and that was due to extreme detonation on #4, but I'm pretty sure that was down to a fuel delivery problem (Lindsay Racing's cheap "uprated" fuel pump?)

Anyway I recount the above to highlight the difference between the map I could get on the car trying to do it myself on the road and what the car was capable of when done properly on a dyno. I'd only map on a dyno in the future, and auto-mapping is a nice idea that doesn't deliver. I guess it got me fuelling that I could trust to get the car to the dyno without detonation or bore-wash, but that's about it.

Lastly, and again not trying to be a wet blanket, I'd caution spending excessive time/effort/cash on Lux tuning. While nothing would ever be achieved without people pushing the boundary and ploughing their own furrow I have to say if it were that easy and gave worthwhile gains it would have been done long ago. Also unless you are resticted by the regulations of a race series there is little point tuning a base model when an off-the-shelf more powerful version is available that will provide far better performance than you'll ever achieve with a Lux, quite possibly for not a lot more money and which will hold most of the value you sink into it.

I can't see John Milledge giving up the source of his camshaft blanks; my indie found out where (also in Germany) Porsche get their cams from and he guards that secret well as it means he can replace S2 and 968 cams for less than pretty much anyone else. If JM gives up his supplier and presumably his profile specs so you can get a cam ground in the UK then he's opening himself up to a competitor of his own creation.
 

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