944 newbie
- Thread starter ukmastiff
- Start date
edh
New member
Hi and welcome Services aren't expensive, but they are old cars now, so there's plenty of maintenance to keep on top of. Some parts are pricey, some are surprisingly cheap. Well worth cultivating a good independant specialist whose labour rates aren't excessive.. If your budget is £7-8k, I'd be spending £5-6k on the purchase, and keeping a fund for the fettling that every new owner does.
Welcome Toby, hanging around and learning about them sounds like a good plan - hope you end up with a good one! There will also be the odd get together you may be able to tag along to and chat to a few owners, look at a few different models in the metal as it were. However....
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you have no idea of the can of worms you have just opened with this.... The S2 boys will be along mob handed any minute [
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andy watson
Moderator
Hi Toby, and welcome You will find lots of info on here, look through the sticky's too never be shy and always ask plenty of knowledgable guys here to help. Ah! S2 or hair dryer power - that's one big ole chestnut [] Don't discount any of the models, buy the best you can afford and on condition! a good condition Lux or S will reward you just the same if only in a slightly different manner, plus long term I reckon that's were the smart money will be - there ain't that many about in good nick. Have fun looking, keep us up to speed with your progress and get along to some meets, there is plenty going on
] Don't discount any of the models, buy the best you can afford and on condition! a good condition Lux or S will reward you just the same if only in a slightly different manner, plus long term I reckon that's were the smart money will be - there ain't that many about in good nick. Have fun looking, keep us up to speed with your progress and get along to some meets, there is plenty going onaporschefan
PCGB Member
Welcome Toby. Do you have much interest in modifying cars or do you know what you are looking from the 944? Jon at JMG is looking to reduce his fleet and is getting some of his cars in a decent state so they can be sold. May be worth giving him (or Mark) a ring? My experience is its much 'easier' (read cheaper) to own a S2.
Speedy replies! I normally log into numerous accounts before finding a busy forum.. No I haven't got a post or anything about my mk2, basically it's the same with all classic, avoid rusty ones! I bought it a new engine along with new ecu management and just loads of little bits resulting in thousands of pounds spent. Funny thing was I was telling people it's a mk2 16v it won't lose me money when I come to sell! I thought that may be a touchy subject! I'm not planning to wrap it up in cotton wool as an all out investment but I do like purchasing cars that wont cost me a fortune in depreciation. I would consider the 2.7 s as 190bhp would still be pretty fun, but after have a clio sport and mk2 16v, easy power would be a luxury I've never had. So the buy on condition still stands here then, but obviously the brakes and engine matter as well being porsche! I have seen some cheap turbos but they are with dodgy brakes and suspect paintjobs for circa £3.5k.
Hello all,
Not looking just yet but just going to be hanging around the forum getting to grips what tends to go wrong etc with 944's so when I do get one, maybe end of the year I'll be in a much better place to buy one in confidence unlike my mk2 golf, long story short bought it for top dollar, 3 years later scrapped!
I'm stuck between an s2 or a turbo, I like the idea of the turbo but the s2 sounds like its a better drive, I'd hope to spend around 7-8k. What can I expect services to cost etc I'm guessing as it's Porsche anything that breaks will be very expensive.
Saw one today in chichester, looked beautiful!
Toby
Not looking just yet but just going to be hanging around the forum getting to grips what tends to go wrong etc with 944's so when I do get one, maybe end of the year I'll be in a much better place to buy one in confidence unlike my mk2 golf, long story short bought it for top dollar, 3 years later scrapped!
I'm stuck between an s2 or a turbo, I like the idea of the turbo but the s2 sounds like its a better drive, I'd hope to spend around 7-8k. What can I expect services to cost etc I'm guessing as it's Porsche anything that breaks will be very expensive.
Saw one today in chichester, looked beautiful!
Toby
MRGT
New member
Hello and welcome Just to correct a small misconception, the 2.7 isn't an 'S' . The S is 2.5 16 valve (190 bhp), the 2.7 Lux is 8 valve (163bhp I believe) . Then you have the standard Lux -2.5 8 valve, the S2 - 3.0 16 valve (211BHP) and the two turbos's - both 2.5 8 valve, early ones 220 BHP, later ones 250 BHP regards Howard
ChasR
New member
Without confusing you (the dealers here IMO are as much to blame for the confusion as is the Pub banter!) The models went a little like this (feel free to correct): Pre 1986 2.5 'Lux' Square Dash (Series 1) 163BHP 2.5 'Lux' Oval Dash (Sort of a 1.5 but Series 2 would be the correct name) 1985-1986 2.5 Turbo '220' (The early cars had plenty of dish on the original 16" Teledials, had 4 Pot Brembos all round. They came with an LSD etc. as standard) 1985- The above have cheaper wishbones (VW Golf items) than the later cars and wheels had more dish (less offset) in a nutshell. Yes I know the later cars came with alloy versions of the Golf (same dimensions are the earlier alloy arms) items, but you get my point ). There is more but I shall leave you to find that out . Post -86 (Series 2) 2.5 'Lux' Oval Dash (1986-1989) 2.7 'Lux' Oval Dash (1989) 163BHP but more torque than the 2.5 8v 2.5 S 'Venteiler' 2.5 16V (1987-1989) Around 190BHP 3.0 S2 16V 1989-1991 211BHP - This came with the smaller Brembo 4 pots all round that the early Turbos came with). 2.5 Turbo '220' (some of the earlier goodies were lost when they became the later wheel offset cars (Series 2) (1986-1988) 2.5 Turbo S '250' (These came with no sunroof (it could be specified) and the fabled M030 package (Koni Coilovers, larger front brakes, thicker ARBs) (1988-1989?) 2.5 Turbo 250 (1989-1991). The later cars came re equipped with the LSD and M030 brakes, at least after 1990. The Series two cars tend to come with the longer alloy wishbones (pricey) which after 1986 allow for more flat faced wheels (more offset) to be fitted, in addition to a few other minor things. John Mitchell explains the differences between the Turbos very well here (probably better than I can): http://www.jmgporsche.co.uk/index.php/menu-articles/articles-performance/item/177-tuningthe944turbopartone The S in S and S2 stands for Super. I have had many people ask me if I have the '3.0 Turbo S2' when my car is what they think it is, but of course, they have the wrong information (Porsche did not produce 944 3.0 Turbo cars on a large scale despite comments to the contrary). The S and S2s were only ever available in Series 2 form, just like the 250 Turbos (and arguably the 220s depending on how you look at things). After driving a few, here are my brief opinions: Early 2.5- A great car. They have more of a 'classic' feel than the later cars, and feel quick thanks to their low weight (out of the stock 944s they have to be amongst the lightest in Series 1 Square Dash form). Early Series 2 2.5 - This example was not the best (the car I drove), but regardless, the Series 1 car above had more sparkle and and less weight. A step towards refinement some could say Early 220 Turbo - I cannot comment since I have never driven one, but I am told from passengers that the turbo cuts in a little earlier than it does in the 250 cars. Furthermore, it is said that the boost tails off higher up the RPM rev range. With the earlier offset wishbone setup, these are beginning to acquire quite a following, giving some of the classic feel with great grip and of course, turbo power (other peeps words, not mine!). 2.5 S 16v - No comment again, Andy Watson is the man to ask here. These have reputation for having little power and torque below 3.5/4kRPM, and then lifting up their skirts and taking off quite well. A cult following is present of these cars one could argue. 2.7 - No Comment 3.0 S2 - IMO this is the smooth operator out of the lot. It is quicker than the rest in the real world arguably due to its very flexible powerplant (in part due to the extra 500cc it gained) with an abundance of power and torque. It stills have a little 'kick' above 3.5k and it is great fun. Some are bored by its smoothness, others love it. Arguably it is the precursor to the 968. 250 Turbo - In all honesty, they are not the quickest things below 3.5kRPM. Little power and torque are present. Above this, and they really do take off! On boost, they are almost certainly the quickest 944, the issue is keeping it there! Turbo lag may also be a problem, even when compared to modern turbocharged cars. Saying that, I reckon it adds to the character of the car, and reminds you of when manufacturers seem to shoehorn in the largest turbo they could get their hands on! As for what to buy? Buy the best you can afford. Yes an S2 will not drop in value, but even to keep it there it can cost a pretty penny in comparison to the earlier cars (you can ask me how I know and that was with me working on the car at many times, thus saving labour)) That was with the previous owner having splashed out on a new starter motor, brake pads and discs all round and a fresh battery. My Turbo cost me more to buy initially, but has covered more miles and ultimately cost me less to run (all in as well!) despite the few miles I covered in the S2. To make matters worse it handles better, something I would have addressed on my S2 should I have kept it. Your budget should get you a half decent S2 IMO. As for costs: Servicing - relatively inexpensive IMO Suspension - Expensive (front lower arms on post -86 cars are around £200 for recon items, earlier arms from Series 1 cars are almost 1/10 of that), some bits are reasonable Engine - Depends. Minor stuff if caught in time is moderately priced. Beyond that you have guessed it. Bodywork - expensive Clutch - expensive (this goes for any 944, not just the S2 and Turbos) Interiors - Depends. Sports seats now command a premium although a few things can be sourced reasonably secondhand Anyway, I am sure there are errors in the vague specs I have provided (guys, feel free to set me straight), but hopefully you will get an idea. I also thank you for reading what has probably been the longest post in this section for the week. EDIT: Post has been tidied up a touch, it was a slightly messy previously!
). There is more but I shall leave you to find that out . Post -86 (Series 2) 2.5 'Lux' Oval Dash (1986-1989) 2.7 'Lux' Oval Dash (1989) 163BHP but more torque than the 2.5 8v 2.5 S 'Venteiler' 2.5 16V (1987-1989) Around 190BHP 3.0 S2 16V 1989-1991 211BHP - This came with the smaller Brembo 4 pots all round that the early Turbos came with). 2.5 Turbo '220' (some of the earlier goodies were lost when they became the later wheel offset cars (Series 2) (1986-1988) 2.5 Turbo S '250' (These came with no sunroof (it could be specified) and the fabled M030 package (Koni Coilovers, larger front brakes, thicker ARBs) (1988-1989?) 2.5 Turbo 250 (1989-1991). The later cars came re equipped with the LSD and M030 brakes, at least after 1990. The Series two cars tend to come with the longer alloy wishbones (pricey) which after 1986 allow for more flat faced wheels (more offset) to be fitted, in addition to a few other minor things. John Mitchell explains the differences between the Turbos very well here (probably better than I can): http://www.jmgporsche.co.uk/index.php/menu-articles/articles-performance/item/177-tuningthe944turbopartone The S in S and S2 stands for Super. I have had many people ask me if I have the '3.0 Turbo S2' when my car is what they think it is, but of course, they have the wrong information (Porsche did not produce 944 3.0 Turbo cars on a large scale despite comments to the contrary). The S and S2s were only ever available in Series 2 form, just like the 250 Turbos (and arguably the 220s depending on how you look at things). After driving a few, here are my brief opinions: Early 2.5- A great car. They have more of a 'classic' feel than the later cars, and feel quick thanks to their low weight (out of the stock 944s they have to be amongst the lightest in Series 1 Square Dash form). Early Series 2 2.5 - This example was not the best (the car I drove), but regardless, the Series 1 car above had more sparkle and and less weight. A step towards refinement some could say Early 220 Turbo - I cannot comment since I have never driven one, but I am told from passengers that the turbo cuts in a little earlier than it does in the 250 cars. Furthermore, it is said that the boost tails off higher up the RPM rev range. With the earlier offset wishbone setup, these are beginning to acquire quite a following, giving some of the classic feel with great grip and of course, turbo power (other peeps words, not mine!). 2.5 S 16v - No comment again, Andy Watson is the man to ask here. These have reputation for having little power and torque below 3.5/4kRPM, and then lifting up their skirts and taking off quite well. A cult following is present of these cars one could argue. 2.7 - No Comment 3.0 S2 - IMO this is the smooth operator out of the lot. It is quicker than the rest in the real world arguably due to its very flexible powerplant (in part due to the extra 500cc it gained) with an abundance of power and torque. It stills have a little 'kick' above 3.5k and it is great fun. Some are bored by its smoothness, others love it. Arguably it is the precursor to the 968. 250 Turbo - In all honesty, they are not the quickest things below 3.5kRPM. Little power and torque are present. Above this, and they really do take off! On boost, they are almost certainly the quickest 944, the issue is keeping it there! Turbo lag may also be a problem, even when compared to modern turbocharged cars. Saying that, I reckon it adds to the character of the car, and reminds you of when manufacturers seem to shoehorn in the largest turbo they could get their hands on! As for what to buy? Buy the best you can afford. Yes an S2 will not drop in value, but even to keep it there it can cost a pretty penny in comparison to the earlier cars (you can ask me how I know and that was with me working on the car at many times, thus saving labour)) That was with the previous owner having splashed out on a new starter motor, brake pads and discs all round and a fresh battery. My Turbo cost me more to buy initially, but has covered more miles and ultimately cost me less to run (all in as well!) despite the few miles I covered in the S2. To make matters worse it handles better, something I would have addressed on my S2 should I have kept it. Your budget should get you a half decent S2 IMO. As for costs: Servicing - relatively inexpensive IMO Suspension - Expensive (front lower arms on post -86 cars are around £200 for recon items, earlier arms from Series 1 cars are almost 1/10 of that), some bits are reasonable Engine - Depends. Minor stuff if caught in time is moderately priced. Beyond that you have guessed it. Bodywork - expensive Clutch - expensive (this goes for any 944, not just the S2 and Turbos) Interiors - Depends. Sports seats now command a premium although a few things can be sourced reasonably secondhand Anyway, I am sure there are errors in the vague specs I have provided (guys, feel free to set me straight), but hopefully you will get an idea. I also thank you for reading what has probably been the longest post in this section for the week. EDIT: Post has been tidied up a touch, it was a slightly messy previously!
Great post Chas! 2,7 - Only the same power as the 2.5 but quite a lot more torque so pulls quite well and is very easy to drive. I did have an early 2.5 with a dyno'd known good engine and the 2.7 certainly has lots more pull, but the early cars feel more sporty, due to the different front geo.
944 man
Active member
I have a 2.7l and have since realised that it was performing poorly against a series one lightweight car which weighed about as much as a packet of crisps. As a result it didn't feel sparkling and its the only 2.7l that I have had experience of, despite being a long-term enthusiast. As a result of this I believe that the opinion that I have expressed about 2.7ls not being as much of an improvement as people say to be erroneous. Ive just remembered that a G-Tech estimated the series one car at 183bhp, based on a standard car's weight, so that was always going to be difficult for the 2.7l car to match.
Ewan
New member
Your budget will buy a very good S2. In fact, the vast majority (of the admittedly not very many) S2's left would be way less. Your budget will also buy a good 220 turbo, and a passable 250 turbo. Personally I'd not want to spend your budget on a Lux, S, 2.7 or variants thereof. But that's me - others will think differently. Rather like when buying property (buy the worst house in the best street and do it up), I'd be buying a 250 turbo if I was you. Parts are readily available (generally both new and s/h), so anything can be fixed. Just make sure the chassis/body/sills are as rust free as possible. The 250 turbo will always be the Daddy of the range and command the highest price, so grab one now and enjoy the investment ride. (Of course, I've conveniently ignored the running costs and "upgrade" trap associated with this model...)
Very early 944 Lux for overall feedback, S2 for "any gear" grunt, 220 Turbo for ultimate mid range speed wiith Turbo Teledialds (Uber Cool) or complete madness a 250 Turbo with a Stage 1 tune, kin " oh my giddy aunt" push. All great but buy the best you can most are expensive rusty rot boxes, if you are handy with the spenners and they are nowt to be frightened of (nuts and bolts) so look for a rot fre one with history and you have cracked it.
andy watson
Moderator
All the cars are great, that is the main thing. Originally had I known more about these cars and found this forum first, I would probably not have bought an S, but after 12 years of enjoyment I would not change her. Ask GlennS (S2) or Hairyarse (Turbo) how my S shapes up against them on a spirited drive! Generally low down torque the S struggles without a doubt, around the town, traffic jams etc she get tiring but when out having fun and keeping the revs up [] On the open road she will hold her own, typically the 16v needs those revs that is the nature and the driving experience of that type of power plant. As with the Lux, there aren't that many of the S model around, hence my original advice not to disregard them, but that all depends on your reason for buying a 944, short term fun, project, or long term A-B car or a keeper. Whatever the reason, buy on condition, history and from preferably an enthusiast, rather than on what someone else tells you is the best model as they will all test the depth if your pockets if not careful. Prices are very very slowly creeping up, not that they will hit the heady heights of the old fords for a while, but looked after and treasured who knows maybe one day.
] On the open road she will hold her own, typically the 16v needs those revs that is the nature and the driving experience of that type of power plant. As with the Lux, there aren't that many of the S model around, hence my original advice not to disregard them, but that all depends on your reason for buying a 944, short term fun, project, or long term A-B car or a keeper. Whatever the reason, buy on condition, history and from preferably an enthusiast, rather than on what someone else tells you is the best model as they will all test the depth if your pockets if not careful. Prices are very very slowly creeping up, not that they will hit the heady heights of the old fords for a while, but looked after and treasured who knows maybe one day.
Suffolk944
Moderator
Bottom line is they are all great cars in their own ways so worth giving all variants a try before finally taking the plunge. If you have definitely narrowed your preferences to either S2 or turbo then do drive both as they have very different characters. Also worth bearing in mind that the 220 and 250 turbo cars are really quite distinct from one another in how they drive that goes way beyond the power difference so worth trying both of those if you do decide to go down the route to the dark side [] My early 220 felt very different to my current 250 even after I started adding on the same extra go faster bits to both cars.
] My early 220 felt very different to my current 250 even after I started adding on the same extra go faster bits to both cars.
Hairyarse
New member
Yes I remember that day! And overtaking a lorry on a fast A-road, third gear, foot to the floor and Andy's S wasn't getting any smaller in my rear view mirror which surprised me! As said, they're all great cars, I've owned a square dash, S2 and then the Turbo. It's amazing how different the 'same' car can be. I have my preference in the Turbo - I will own another! But could easily be tempted by a square dash again. Just drive a few and by the best (rust free) that you can
Thanks for the great replies, it leaves me with lots to think about and making my itch even bigger! I've just been excepted for a mortgage, so looks like after summer I'll be buying one! It would be best to test drive them all, I'll probably go and veiw an s2, turbo and turbo 250. I checked JMgs website but they have all sold! I havn't seen any decent s2's for my money, is the market quite over priced, people being greedy etc ?
andrew_churcher
New member
What is your budget again? Just sold a nice one for £6.5k. You are better to up you budget to the £5-7k range to get a nice car preferably with the seller having spent a fair few quid in upkeep in the recent history file. Cheaper cars will generally need a few grand spending on them or be a complete dog underneath some shiny paintwork. Preferably get a car known here. The turbo guys here on the forum are crazy and think they are faster and better than the S2 (they well never learn) but they know a good car from a tip [
]. Heed their advice as it could save you a fortune
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