944 S2 valuation?

[Guest]

Thanks for all your advice. Buying a 944 is like ducking a witch (if she drowns then she's not a witch, if she survives then she's obviously a witch so you kill her anyway) - the good ones get sold before you get a chance to see them, and the ones you do get to see aren't good. I know what I'm like and (just like when you see an attractive person of the opposite sex), I'll get drawn in by the sheer good looks of the exterior, irrespective of what lies underneath

By the way, is the pinstripe intereior REALLY that bad??!!

 

[mik_ok]

Burn her, burn her! []

ORIGINAL: ayaana
By the way, is the pinstripe intereior REALLY that bad??!![/size]

I think the pinstripe interiors add 10 years when compared to the leather interior (in terms of the projected "vintage" ~ I'm not suggesting that the cloth interiors are always worn).

Prices appear to reflect that leather is preffered ~ I'm lucky as my black leather is spotless
[8D] ( / smug mode )

 

[Justin85]

I paid 4k for my 1989 Red S2 about a month ago.

115k, bodywork generally good, full OPC/JZM service history including belts and waterpump at JZM at 104k (wonder if they checked the chain?) and new P-Zeros/discs/pads/braided hoses all round.

I knew it would need a clutch as the thrust was grumbling but it was by far and away the nicest to drive of all the S2's I was looking at from £4k - £7k...

Needs to be have geometry/alignment, but that's only £200. I must admit to wanting a black or white one really but settled for Guards Red (with Linen leather) after seeing lots of dogs.

Justin.

 

[Alpine]

ORIGINAL: Fen

Sounds like it might be about right. Nice interior or pinstripe non-sport velour? I was serious about the cams; if there is nothing in the paperwork to say they have been looked at then it's very likely at 124k they are knackered.

i agree - my car had 124k miles when i got it, and mine needed new camshafts which costs £1k. This was in addition to the cost of replacing the chain itself. Apparently the chain eventually wears away the teeth on the camshaft, hence the reason for needing a new one.

Might be worth asking the seller about the chain and camshafts. If he looks blank at you then they wont have been changed. The alternative would be to take the car to a porsche specialist and get them to lift the cam covers (?) and take a look at them, but i assume there would be a charge for this work.

 

[944turboS]

The pinstripe interior is not in my humble, worthless opinion isn't that bad. My 924S had grey pinstripe, my first 220hp turbo had linnen pinstripe & we had a 944 Lux with burgundy pinstripe. The black pinstripe does seem to suffer from fading on the top of the rear seats (goes a brownish colour) due to sunlight through the hatch.
The only interior I have seen that I dislike in any colour is Pasha, but others think its nice.

 

[Fen]

I just hate velour with an absoloute screaming passion. Is it possible to get any more 1980's? By contrast the other cloth options on S2's are better; Studio (the tartan check) is not common and can be lairy, logo I actually quite like and is pretty hard wearing. You can't beat leather though because, as mik said, the cloth dates the car. Especially that God-awful velour. I make no apology for pffending anyone who has it either; I've done my time with it in a 911 and a 944 Turbo (in burgundy [:'(]). I don't think you can say at x miles an S2 will need cams. I think the rule of thumb is get the chain looked at every second belt service. If it hasn't been touched for 120+k it's very much on borrowed time, at 100k it's 50:50 is my guess.

 

[Diver944]

Ayaana, here is a pic which hopefully shows the cam BELT and the cam CHAIN setup a bit clearer.

1. The belt is at the front of the engine and drives the LH camshaft
2. The chain is half way along the camshaft and connects both camshafts
3. The belt has a Porsche interval of 4 years or 48k miles (most replace sooner)
4. The chain has never had a service interval recommended
5. Under the chain is a plastic tensioner pad (which 'can' wear out after 50k miles)


A good independant will change the chain and pad every 50 k miles (for £300), this will keep your cam in good condition and last a long time. If this is not done, the cams will wear prematurely and need replacement.

If left too long then something will fail (pad, chain or cam) and thats when it gets really expensive by knackering up your head).

The S2 is a brilliant engine and will go on forever if looked after (mines at 165k miles now). We're not trying to put you off, but are arming you with a bit more info that you can use for peace of mind (or to knock down a seller if there is no evidence of it ever being done)

edited to add the damn picture [8|]

 

[Guest]

Paul,
THANK-YOU! You have made even a pathetic excuse for a mechanic (me) understand the set-up. You are, of course, correct - I am not so much scared anymore, but more knowledgeable(!) I am going to buy one, it's just a matter of which one and when.............
MERRY CHRISTMAS!

 

[colin129]

Bit sad posting on Xmas day, but there you go...

My S2 had 165K when I had it serviced at JZ a couple of months ago and had the belts changed. Asked them to check the cam chain tensioner slipper as, although I have had it changed at some stage (I have done 105K mile in the last 9 years), it was a while ago. No problem with the slipper and nothing to say on the chain, they did say that the chain tends to stretch a bit with wear and when it gets too much, the tensioner can no longer take up the slack, mine checked out fine.

I asked what was likely to happen soon, i.e. what do I need to save up for, and was told nothing, just keep servicing it regularly and I should be alright for a few years yet. No mention of the cam chain, which I believe is the original. I am therefore confused by this thread.

I can't believe JZ would not have told me of impending disaster and I am pretty sure they know what they are talking about,and besides, I'm a good payer, they take a grand off me every time I have a service because I tend to get everything done.

Am I just lucky that my cam chain has lasted so well?

 

[Fen]

Maybe you are lucky. Then again JZ told someone on here his 944 T overheated at Silverstone because he shouldn't have been running a thermostat on track. Personally I don't know if I include them in the "know what they are looking at" category. Sorry if that's a shock.

 

[colin129]

ORIGINAL: Fen

Personally I don't know if I include them in the "know what they are looking at" category.

Begs the question, who can you trust?

 

[Big Dave]

Colin
IF your chain is the original one then it would suprise me greatly....????? especially at 165000 miles....
If it is ,, personally i defo would be changing it....otherwise theyl be taking WAY MORE than a grand off you to fix the damage it could cause...
BUT if they tell you its OK then who am i to argue.....??????

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: colin129

ORIGINAL: Fen

Personally I don't know if I include them in the "know what they are looking at" category.

Begs the question, who can you trust?

Well, I think it's down to individuals rather than companies. Enough people swear by JZ that I don't see how they can be bad per se, but then there have been a couple of negative sotries involving them recently so I imagine in their case they have one or two technicians who aren't up to the job and the rest who are. I have no personal ezperience of them to be positive though. Personally I use a one-man outfit, recently ex-OPC and fully trained on the 944 and cars of its age. I know him quite well now having worked with him on my car and I know that everything he puts his name to is done by him. The problem is that he can only do so much and there has to come a point where either he turns work away or he takes someone else on. If it's the latter then his name becomes only as good as the guy he hires, work could become more variable in quality etc. etc. My guess is that JZ have (or had) someone not up to the job who is generating the bad press for them.

 

[Hilux]

JZ told someone on here his 944 T overheated at Silverstone because he shouldn't have been running a thermostat on track.

Hi y`all..........that was me - to quote them exactly they said that the 944T`s do not need the thermostat when on track or racing. My only experience with them is that the 12,00 mile service was good value, the additional works recommended were genuine and very competitively priced prior to my agreeing to them, the `advisory` list was truly comprehensive ie: they had checked the car thoroughly however the car (although washed etc) was left with greasy finger marks on it.

PS: mines for sale if you`re interested []

 

[Fen]

Why you selling so soon?

 

[colin129]

IF your chain is the original one then it would suprise me greatly....????? especially at 165000 miles....

Fair comment, though I seem to be pretty easy on mechanical components, my clutch lasted 90K but, with the benefit of hindsight, it was on its way out maybe 15K miles before that (the previous owners had done 60K of those miles). The 'new' one has now done 75K miles (with plenty a traffic jaming though lots of long journeys obviously) with no discernable signs of wear like the last time. Still on original engine mounts etc. Cam chain slipper wasn't particularly warn. Doesn't mean that everything isn't just about to fail though.

I have not changed the cam chain in my ownership, which, as I said, is 105K miles.

I now know what you are thinking...and I am thinking the same thing...clocked?

It was a main dealer PX too old and leggy for a Porsche Centre, fully stamped up service book. I look after it as best I can, had average mileage when I brought it and a number of different owners. Brought from a well know dealer, Micheal Ticehurst. I am pretty sure the mileage is genuine.

I'm happy with it anyway, its been my baby for 9 years in January and 105K miles and I still get a thrill every time I drive her.

 

[Fen]

Even if it is clocked I don't think it matters, you know the car and what's right and wrong with it and that won't change though you find it has actually covered 365,000 miles. I took my S2 cab from 142,000 to 192,000 and it was still going strong. As far as I know it was on its original clutch - most of the miles were probably motorway as mine were, but it had cams at 145k due to worm chain and failing case hardening. Otherwise it needed new suspension, tie rods, clutch cylinders, starter and not much else. It didn't make any untoward noises save a lazy tappet on cold start and it didn't smoke nor use any fluids. Not having a repair in the history is quite common I think. On one service we found a piece of valve spring on the sump plug magnet on mine so of course the top end had to be part stripped to check. We could see the damage where the broken spring had marked the head, but the spring had been replaced. It was not mentioned anywhere in the full history of the 3 owner car.

 

[PRJ]

ORIGINAL: colin129

...my clutch lasted 90K but, with the benefit of hindsight, it was on its way out maybe 15K miles before that (the previous owners had done 60K of those miles). The 'new' one has now done 75K miles (with plenty a traffic jaming though lots of long journeys obviously) with no discernable signs of wear like the last time.

I was just about to post asking about peoples experiences of clutch failure symptoms, so your comments make interesting reading. My car had a clutch at 40k, but is now on 126k and I'm kinda thinking it'll need one sooner rather than later. As far as I can tell it's fine at the mo, but I just wandered what the typical symptoms were when it's on it's way out. Do you just get a progressively worsening 'slip', or perhaps judder, or does it just go bang one day and that's it. I know it's pretty subjective stuff, but would be interested in how the wear was discernable for you and for any other experiences people have had.

Back at work... [:'(]

 

[colin129]

On clutch wear:

Its a while ago now, so the memory is fading, but...

After a long traffic jaming session, i.e. trying to find a place to park in Central London, there would be steadily worsening slip. Also, on mine, the doughnuts had perished causing a jerk on changing gear unless great care was taken. This would happen at any speed in any circumstance, even declutching at 90mph.

As I said before, I have done 75K miles on current clutch with no disernable signs of wear.

 

[Hilux]

Why you selling so soon?

Fen,

The 944 was bought for track days etc. I was going to strip it out and cage it/lighten it/upgrade it etc but I saw a load of 944 dogs out there while looking to buy a 944T, I have then subsequently seen many more 944`s at Porsche meets and outings and met many Porsche Club members/owners who all commented on what a nice one it is I decided to leave well alone.

Problem is its a fantastic car, awesome, trouble is its not like my supercar eating G27 V8 or fantastic handling `kin noisy as hell XE powered Westfield ie: it doesnt stun your senses.

Turbocharged engines run v v quiet on the induction side so there you sit cosseted in a v quiet cabin with a/c on and CD player running with simply a whoosh and occasional rumble from the brakes and suspension while the horizon closes in on you at warp speed. After a three hour journey you get out feeling totally refreshed whereas you KNEW you`d been in a Westy/Ginetta. In particular I miss the open top side of things. I really want another dedicated track day car not a show car.

Dynamically its a superb machine but too civilised for me and although I`ve built and rebuilt a few cars its simply too awkward to work on in my opinion. I like seperate chassis/body combinations, easy access and challenging to alter/upgrade.

I`m going for a pranged/repairable VX 220 turbo/Elise or part built something (Ultima would be nice)

Regards

Paul