944 Turbo S Engine Rebuild Thread

[924Srr27l]

You miss my point Roger...the point is for decades these experts and yes they are experts, their experience is second to none, have driven everything to see the road since the launch and continue to do so to this day....the point is they still hold the 951 right up there as one of the best designs ever built even when compared to the latest cars..

This is fact, I could write volumes on what the experts have had to say about the 951 over the years, including the top designers from Porsche.
One such fact is that when a group of jornalists got together to decide amongst themselves which supercar they were going to label as the best for that year, they came to the conclusion that none of the cars on the list was as good as the 951, a car that wasn't even labelled as a supercar and thus didn't qualify, this shows you why the car is so good...

You need to pin your comment to a year though ? these experts have driven everything to see the road in 2021 inc all the supercars and the 951 is still the King? you may think this as you're a bit
of a fan! but really I can't see this unless you can produce the magazine artcle / document etc...to show me here in 2021 that it's still better than anything since 1985!

R

 

[PSH]

I didn't say it was the king, I said it still even today sits right up there as one of the best cars to drive....granted the supercar comment is from the 80's. Both Tiff and JC are current auto journalists with extremely vast experience in all things auto, I think its safe to say that they know what they are talking about, I pick these two as they are most well known. For Tiff, there will be some nostalgia, after all, he was champion in a 951 and made his video 10, perhaps 15 years ago when he reminisced on his trip across the Alps and finished by saying that he wanted another one. JC was more recent when he put it in his top ten, mind you his top ten changes with the wind but his top 100 video included the 951

Pete

 

[924Srr27l]

I didn't say it was the king, I said it still even today sits right up there as one of the best cars to drive....granted the supercar comment is from the 80's. Both Tiff and JC are current auto journalists with extremely vast experience in all things auto, I think its safe to say that they know what they are talking about, I pick these two as they are most well known. For Tiff, there will be some nostalgia, after all, he was champion in a 951 and made his video 10, perhaps 15 years ago when he reminisced on his trip across the Alps and finished by saying that he wanted another one. JC was more recent when he put it in his top ten, mind you his top ten changes with the wind but his top 100 video included the 951
Pete

Ok, so I can see now more clearly your train of thought here is now being more specific on 3 main points:

- they still hold the 951 right up there as one of the best designs ever built even when compared to the latest cars..
- In an 80's car test / article they came to the conclusion that none of the cars on the list was as good as the 951, a car that wasn't even labelled as a supercar and thus didn't qualify, this shows you why the car is so good...
- I said it still even today sits right up there as one of the best cars to drive

I think on these Points:
- (1) you mean it was a great layout design at the time but how can you compare to a modern car chassis which is so much structurally stiffer and (better handling)
- (2) Yes I can imagine it did show up very well in the 80's against supercars which always have there drawbacks
- (3) Again you can;t compare old V new chassis it's not fair, computer and other tech has made them far stiffer than ever. The difference between a stock 944 and a stripped out
multi point rollcaged one is massive. Another example is a friend that worked for Prodrive said a brand new M4 road has far more structural stiffness than a Fully prepared BTCC 1990's BMW E30 M3

R

 

[PSH]

It's the overall package that makes it a winner, it's not just its handling or the speed, it's how it is all put together and the drive that results from it. Any 951 driver will know the power of the cars mid-range punch, it truly is like a train even in standard form, and why the 951 was 3 or 4 secs quicker in mid-range than the 911. This ability meant it is still a very quick car today and often beat the 996 GT3's when still allowed to race against them before Porsche band the car from the Porsche cup series.
I fully accept that car chassis have moved on since the 80's in their design, not necessarily in their ability, a standard 951 can still hold it's own against most of today's modern cars, a modified car can blitz most of what's out there. You can drive a 951 flat out and do so safely, it stays rooted to the road, something that Porsche was very aware of and why they stated it was the fastest car in the fleet IIRC 1989-1990? and why it was banned from the cup in the early 2000's, it could still outperform the best that Porsche could build and supply at that time, a then 25 year old car beating the latest race car as in the GT3 was an embarrassing situation which they had to stop and they did and why we were left with two series using GT3's only, the super cup and cup..

 

[924Srr27l]

It's the overall package that makes it a winner, it's not just its handling or the speed, it's how it is all put together and the drive that results from it. Any 951 driver will know the power of the cars mid-range punch, it truly is like a train even in standard form, and why the 951 was 3 or 4 secs quicker in mid-range than the 911. This ability meant it is still a very quick car today and often beat the 996 GT3's when still allowed to race against them before Porsche band the car from the Porsche cup series.
I fully accept that car chassis have moved on since the 80's in their design, not necessarily in their ability, a standard 951 can still hold it's own against most of today's modern cars, a modified car can blitz most of what's out there. You can drive a 951 flat out and do so safely, it stays rooted to the road, something that Porsche was very aware of and why they stated it was the fastest car in the fleet IIRC 1989-1990? and why it was banned from the cup in the early 2000's, it could still outperform the best that Porsche could build and supply at that time, a then 25 year old car beating the latest race car as in the GT3 was an embarrassing situation which they had to stop and they did and why we were left with two series using GT3's only, the super cup and cup..

No you are Pete just totally Blinkered! Otherwise according to you everyone should be pinning and buying a 951 because they are just an out of this world sports car far beyond anything prodcued in the last 40 + years.

Your references are not very weighty referring to race cars, they are a total different bag.

Chassis ability not better 5 decades ?? come on wakey wakey its a fact! not a myth...

A 2nd hand stock 952 being bought these days say a 1989 model against a modern turbocharged hatch less than 1.8 would roast it! I'm referring to an example
well maintained but in need of all the usual bushes brakes and so on..

A lot of people that have tested an old Transaxle have been very disappointed after reading all the hype. They are not for everyone, quite harsh noisy and agricultural to drive
they will NOT blow your socks off compared to a modern Euro Box Diesel Turbo for example and not as comfortable or economical.

You're just way too attached to yours Pete, time for a change I think! As in park yours up and get a modern hatch!

R

 

[scam75]

As an aside Tiff drove my car many years ago when the previous owner took it to some PCGB meeting. He waxed lyrical about apparently and said he must get himself another one!!

Stuart

 

[PSH]

If you say so Roger.. if you say so...

 

[TTM]

It's a bit of a shame though that Nick's comment on the well-documented torque drop off past 5500rpm, which was no doubt meant as a harmless observation, encouraged some talibans to climb out of their cave for a bit of stoning... [][]

 

[924Srr27l]

If you say so Roger.. if you say so...

Modern Hot Hatch or Classic Sports Car? VW Golf GTI Vs Porsche 968 Sport - YouTube

Race series: Modern Classics Classification (tsl-timing.com)
Sorry to say the M3's are just so quick!! I've got the same issue in my race class with Beemers E36 328i + 330i E46

R

 

[PSH]

why make it personal? first, we are members of the Taliban and now characters from Monty Python...???

 

[TTM]

I am not making anything more personal than there is always a few who for some reason litter technical threads like this one with either their ignorance on technical topics that have been done to death or whatever other irrational reasons. This is exactly what has turned what was not too long ago a great forum into what it is now.

 

[PSH]

yes, frustrating isn't it.....[8D]

 

[924Srr27l]

I am not making anything more personal than there is always a few who for some reason litter technical threads like this one with either their ignorance on technical topics that have been done to death or whatever other irrational reasons. This is exactly what has turned what was not too long ago a great forum into what it is now.

Some things never change,
It's sadly very common for car lovers to NOT agree on lots of subjectional subjects and it's often very difficult to defend one's self professionally (No personal jibes etc..)
when some long term established members not only express their views very strongly but also with personal quips...


R

 

[nick_968]

Just re-reading my original post which was just intended to congratulate the OP on a great thread and sticking it out on a tough journey and struggling to see how it descended into this.....no wonder the forums are quiet these days as it has just reminded me why I don't post very much. Good luck to the OP and thanks for sharing.

 

[Eldavo]

While you guys were going round in circles, I was too - but having a lot more fun.


(Got a ride out with a very handy driver in his McLaren 720S too, made me reevaluate my thoughts on what "fast” was.)

 

[PSH]

Sounds like fun...so you've not seen the YT video of a beat up black 944 completely thrash a 720s on the drag strip? I think someone said it beat the 720s by a bigger margin than any other car before it To be fair, it was an EV conversion with two Tesla motors etc. I watched it a few months back when first posted on FB, very impressive...

 

[Eldavo]

I have seen that video Pete, but a drag hero is one thing but the way this monstered the corners and seeing that huge wing pop up as an airbrake was mesmerising. My ears popped twice per lap and I got out feeling a little queasy - I’ve been on track as a passenger in some very quick stuff but this was next level as a complete package . . . as it should be for £210k+

 

[PSH]

Sounds exciting mate...they are impressive cars...mind you at that price they should be ..

 

[James0]

Come on guys this isn’t a good look. Time to back away from the internet

 

[924Srr27l]

While you guys were going round in circles, I was too - but having a lot more fun.
(Got a ride out with a very handy driver in his McLaren 720S too, made me reevaluate my thoughts on what "fast” was.)

Hooray the motor & Car lives and you've been circulating a circuit........Looks like you have some Understeer?
Time to lose some weight and get the front geo corrected / decent dampers etc...Unless it was just a one off and the car's a 90% Roadie?
In which case leave it, and just accept circuit days will give the car a hard time on brakes / tyres and dampers etc..

R