944 Turbo SE - Tuning Help !!!
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DavidL
Active member
Paul,
This really isn't going to go as you planned.
Yes you can buy the mechanical bits and fit them with a degree of impunity. DPW, DV, boost enhancer if you need it, chip set etc. But then you need it set up so your fuel pump can supply enough fuel to stop your newly powerful engine running lean, your chips working with your 3 bar fuel regulator for the same reason and your MAF kit mapped to work with all the rest.
Now I'm no mechanical genius and I expect the more knowledgeable amongst us to pull huge holes in the above but it is pretty much guaranteed if you bolt it all on and run it yourself without some intelligent help you will go very fast and feel very pleased with yourself for about 500 miles before you expire in a cloud of steam and expired head gasket (and more if you are unlucky).
Now there is no issue in collecting the mechanical bits used for a fraction of their new cost but get the engine checked and make sure you have a sound base and after that someone who can set all the bits up separately and properly. If that's you I take my hat off to you sir because I wouldn't even try. I can wield a spanner and fit the bits but I don't know a good air/fuel ratio from a small bomb.
I feel I know some of this because I'm doing exactly the same as you in a similar ish manner.
In any field you ignore a professionals' advice at your peril and the likes of Andy S knows a thing or two and regardless of whether you feel there may be a degree of salesmanship (it's a business afterall) advice is offered in good faith. We are,after all, here for the same reason which is to run these cars better, faster and for longer.
I hope you will take this in the manner it is intended which is to aid a fellow enthusiast and prevent an expensive rebuild which perhaps could have been avoided.
This really isn't going to go as you planned.
Yes you can buy the mechanical bits and fit them with a degree of impunity. DPW, DV, boost enhancer if you need it, chip set etc. But then you need it set up so your fuel pump can supply enough fuel to stop your newly powerful engine running lean, your chips working with your 3 bar fuel regulator for the same reason and your MAF kit mapped to work with all the rest.
Now I'm no mechanical genius and I expect the more knowledgeable amongst us to pull huge holes in the above but it is pretty much guaranteed if you bolt it all on and run it yourself without some intelligent help you will go very fast and feel very pleased with yourself for about 500 miles before you expire in a cloud of steam and expired head gasket (and more if you are unlucky).
Now there is no issue in collecting the mechanical bits used for a fraction of their new cost but get the engine checked and make sure you have a sound base and after that someone who can set all the bits up separately and properly. If that's you I take my hat off to you sir because I wouldn't even try. I can wield a spanner and fit the bits but I don't know a good air/fuel ratio from a small bomb.
I feel I know some of this because I'm doing exactly the same as you in a similar ish manner.
In any field you ignore a professionals' advice at your peril and the likes of Andy S knows a thing or two and regardless of whether you feel there may be a degree of salesmanship (it's a business afterall) advice is offered in good faith. We are,after all, here for the same reason which is to run these cars better, faster and for longer.
I hope you will take this in the manner it is intended which is to aid a fellow enthusiast and prevent an expensive rebuild which perhaps could have been avoided.
Suffolk944
Moderator
[8|] If you think you know everything about how to safely and successfully mod these cars why ask the question in the first place ???????
There's plenty of very good advice being given to you on this thread, if you choose not to heed any of it then thats your call and be prepared for major engine problems if you get things wrong but please don't resort to personal abuse against those who are offering it. Its ungrateful, impolite and against forum rules. If you carry on in that vein you will be moderated.
Erm not very polite Totty-
Andrew S is heavily involved in Promax, and has raced (and blown up) 944Ts in the past, is very quick on trackdays and has probably been doing this longer than most - he has a lot of experience - but a slightly vested interest
I don't always see eye to eye with his views but respect his knowledge!
It is possible to assemble a kit of parts that works well, but it is time consuming needs a lot of research and you are on your own if it goes wrong!
There are lots of clues here http://www.cannell.co.uk/944%20UK%20League.htm I did the majority of the work on number 3 in the torque table and my car managed number 6 in the power table despite a massive boost leak at the time.
I have no experience of Waynes work, but we were very surprised when on the first dyno days some off the shelf chips out performed his custom maps, and the number of his tuned cars that suffered HG failures also put me off - maybe unfairly as most original gaskets fail due to age with a bit of extra boost. I know the aforementioned Mr Sweetenham also ran through several HG's with a Schofield modified car - he does push a 944T harder than almost anyone else on track though! ( I have some video somewhere of his steamy car at Coombe)
So yes you can assemble your own parts if you know what you are doing. I haven't looked into it for a long time - have a daughter now and researching V8 transfers in my limited spare time - but assuming all reasonably good I would go for
AFR monitoring
Boost monitoring
and probably knock - though I actually never got round to it myself []
then either MAXHP chips with
3 bar FPR running 18 PSI
tial 38mm wastegate
EBC
55Lb injectors of suitable impedence ( I have Siemens with some resistors)
This is pretty much what the torque car had (well guru chips - no longer available) engine was very healthy in standard form.
I would replace Turbo when it needs it - these days with SPS special
Exhaust is nice as it sounds better and improves flow for the bigger turbo.
Dumping the Air flow meter improves the drive ability and will provide some more flow - If starting now I would be looking very closely at Barks944's project if not there are various alternatives Vittesse is well regarded.
After this the returns get smaller.
Heads / Intercoolers / hard pipes etc.
Personally with the standard cylinder set up I wouldn't like to run more than 18 PSI for extended mileages even with correct fuelling/ignition etc. but others do - there have been some messy and expensive failures though!
good luck,
Tony
Andrew S is heavily involved in Promax, and has raced (and blown up) 944Ts in the past, is very quick on trackdays and has probably been doing this longer than most - he has a lot of experience - but a slightly vested interest
I don't always see eye to eye with his views but respect his knowledge!
It is possible to assemble a kit of parts that works well, but it is time consuming needs a lot of research and you are on your own if it goes wrong!
There are lots of clues here http://www.cannell.co.uk/944%20UK%20League.htm I did the majority of the work on number 3 in the torque table and my car managed number 6 in the power table despite a massive boost leak at the time.
I have no experience of Waynes work, but we were very surprised when on the first dyno days some off the shelf chips out performed his custom maps, and the number of his tuned cars that suffered HG failures also put me off - maybe unfairly as most original gaskets fail due to age with a bit of extra boost. I know the aforementioned Mr Sweetenham also ran through several HG's with a Schofield modified car - he does push a 944T harder than almost anyone else on track though! ( I have some video somewhere of his steamy car at Coombe)
So yes you can assemble your own parts if you know what you are doing. I haven't looked into it for a long time - have a daughter now and researching V8 transfers in my limited spare time - but assuming all reasonably good I would go for
AFR monitoring
Boost monitoring
and probably knock - though I actually never got round to it myself [
] then either MAXHP chips with
3 bar FPR running 18 PSI
tial 38mm wastegate
EBC
55Lb injectors of suitable impedence ( I have Siemens with some resistors)
This is pretty much what the torque car had (well guru chips - no longer available) engine was very healthy in standard form.
I would replace Turbo when it needs it - these days with SPS special
Exhaust is nice as it sounds better and improves flow for the bigger turbo.
Dumping the Air flow meter improves the drive ability and will provide some more flow - If starting now I would be looking very closely at Barks944's project if not there are various alternatives Vittesse is well regarded.
After this the returns get smaller.
Heads / Intercoolers / hard pipes etc.
Personally with the standard cylinder set up I wouldn't like to run more than 18 PSI for extended mileages even with correct fuelling/ignition etc. but others do - there have been some messy and expensive failures though!
good luck,
Tony
DivineE
New member
^^^ what he says. We're on your side. There's no snobbery here, no suggestion you have to do things the proper way but between all those on this forum I reckon we will have tried just about everything from 'windin t'boost up' to chopping apart blocks/circuits and designing engines/electronic systems from scratch.
There are people way more knowledgable than me here but I've tried as many different ways of tuning these cars as almost anyone and I can tell you for certain. It'll be cheaper to do it right at this stage. Even if you want to create your own package (which I dont think will give you best value for money) don't go spending your money on new bits until you've got the existing bits up to scratch.
This advice WILL save you money.
There are people way more knowledgable than me here but I've tried as many different ways of tuning these cars as almost anyone and I can tell you for certain. It'll be cheaper to do it right at this stage. Even if you want to create your own package (which I dont think will give you best value for money) don't go spending your money on new bits until you've got the existing bits up to scratch.
This advice WILL save you money.
It's not that i don't appreciate every ones knowledge, i very much do, it's just some are very sarcastic in viewing there thoughts.
Basically where i am at, at this moment in time, i have managed to source around 2k's worth of parts originally fitted to a 44T by JMG which was breaking & the parts had only done around 500miles, so as new, cost to me £520.
I've fitted the Induction cone filter & Bailey DV30, but still other parts to go on !!!
Fund's are tight as the better half always wants money for something.
Thanks again
Basically where i am at, at this moment in time, i have managed to source around 2k's worth of parts originally fitted to a 44T by JMG which was breaking & the parts had only done around 500miles, so as new, cost to me £520.
I've fitted the Induction cone filter & Bailey DV30, but still other parts to go on !!!
Fund's are tight as the better half always wants money for something.
Thanks again
edh
New member
So effectively you're fitting a s/h JMG kit?.... assuming you've got the lot, then it's a reasonable option. Bit different from buying some random bits as it appeared on your earlier posts.
If that's the case, I don't understand the need for mapping? Just get the DME (or just the chip) that was on the other car. That way you don't need to lash it together to drive to be mapped, it should just work.
Could of hit a tree! Whilst the handling of the 944 is great - I have had a few wake up moments - e.g requiring 1/2 a turn of opposite lock after hitting a damp muddy patch just over a slight crest - Sideways at 75ish
But I do recommend AFR and boost monitoring in 100k miles on a modded 944 I had 2 occurrences that could have destroyed it :-
1) Boost controller went intermittent - hit over 30 psi a couple of times - ok wheelspin in 4th in the dry is noticeable but it doesnt immediately feel like something is wrong.
2) Vacuum pipe came off of fuel pressure regulator on track day - car was running dangerously lean narrow band AFR picked it up - On late cars with cat (or that had cat) adding a gauge is easy and cheap. On a car without narrow band sensor would go wideband.
Tony
But I do recommend AFR and boost monitoring in 100k miles on a modded 944 I had 2 occurrences that could have destroyed it :-
1) Boost controller went intermittent - hit over 30 psi a couple of times - ok wheelspin in 4th in the dry is noticeable but it doesnt immediately feel like something is wrong.
2) Vacuum pipe came off of fuel pressure regulator on track day - car was running dangerously lean narrow band AFR picked it up - On late cars with cat (or that had cat) adding a gauge is easy and cheap. On a car without narrow band sensor would go wideband.
Tony
Suffolk944
Moderator
I really would wait for next year when you can do everything porperly all at once. Pauly is quite correct in suggesting the suspension and brakes may well be a better first step for road use.
Ewan
New member
For me, straight-line speed and acceleration is where it's at, not cornering speeds. My very rural location means high hedges, narrow roads, low visibility and a high chance of a tractor/combine/cow/horse/sheep being in the niddle of the road around the bend, so the only chance of any fun at all is when I reach the straights. Therefore my choice is for more power over, say, stiffer suspension.
Just goes to show that you need to set your car up to meet the needs of your driving style/location. Of course, if I intended to take my car around a track, the requirements would indeed be different, and then the suspension/brakes may well take priority.
Just goes to show that you need to set your car up to meet the needs of your driving style/location. Of course, if I intended to take my car around a track, the requirements would indeed be different, and then the suspension/brakes may well take priority.
I should have made this more clear, I have fitted the 9xx cone filter, Bailey DV30, and the other parts i still have to fit include Tial DPW, Motorsport fuel pump, catcher tank, 55lb injectors, 3 bar FPR & MBC ?
Which parts can be fitted safely before the need for the remap ?
Thanks in advance [
]George Elliott
New member
Paul, we should first define easy[]
Fuel pump is potentially dangerous, but start by draining the tank. Then the condition of the fuel lines will determine the rest. Could be fun, I have done it - given the parts its a comfortable days work.
Catch can, hang it on your garden gate full of peanuts for the Robins[8|], surprisingly difficult to accommodate elegantly. Will affect oil consumption as crankcase vacuum varies. I'd suggest a temporary install, run it for 3000 miles, then hang it in the garden. (I removed mine - a red herring IMO)
One additional suggestion to your otherwise good list, include a boost guage, its a vital variable with MBC, and it needs to be right. You can install the chips and have everything right for say 1.2 bar, but if the diaphragm in the DPW changes condition, you could have 1.35 bar and not be fully aware.
Good luck
George
944T
]Fuel pump is potentially dangerous, but start by draining the tank. Then the condition of the fuel lines will determine the rest. Could be fun, I have done it - given the parts its a comfortable days work.
Catch can, hang it on your garden gate full of peanuts for the Robins[8|], surprisingly difficult to accommodate elegantly. Will affect oil consumption as crankcase vacuum varies. I'd suggest a temporary install, run it for 3000 miles, then hang it in the garden. (I removed mine - a red herring IMO)
One additional suggestion to your otherwise good list, include a boost guage, its a vital variable with MBC, and it needs to be right. You can install the chips and have everything right for say 1.2 bar, but if the diaphragm in the DPW changes condition, you could have 1.35 bar and not be fully aware.
Good luck
George
944T
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