944 Turbo tapping - noisy lifter?

[Hallsy]

Over the cold period my 944 developed a bit of a tap.

It is possible it had always been there a little as I could sometimes hear a slight tappy noise when travelling in built up areas with windows down, but I thought it was either injector noise, or maybe the slight mainfold leak it has one on cylinder, but since then the noise has suddenly got a lot louder - sounding like a sticky lifter.

Just before winter I did an oil service and opted for a slightly thicker oil than what the previous owner was using as it used to burn a bit, so went for Total Quartz 10w50. During the cold weather I didn't use the car as reguarly as I had been, but when I did start using it again the tap was more pronounced.

As I say, to my ears, this sounds like a sticky/soft lifter, and if I listen with a stick I can hear it more clearly over the cam box at no. 2 cylinder. The noise doesn't seem to get any quieter when warm, and doesn't change with load or revs.

Here is a video:

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That didn't work, does this...?

https://www.flickr.com/gp/25266351@N06/8V9gXU


Assuming it is a noisy lifter, has anyone had any luck with these engine flushes?

I am always a little sceptical, and worried they would do more harm than good, but I know JMG recommend the Forte products, as does a local VAG/Porsche specialist. I had also considered dropping the oil and trying a thinner mineral oil to see if the tap clears, then refill with the thicker Total Quartz again.

Just considering what I can try before stripping down the cambox, as even then, if I do find a soft lifter or two, then from what I hear, the replacements are pretty poor quality anyway, and likely to fail pretty quickly?

Any suggestions or advice would be great

 

[zcacogp]

That's too noisy to be injectors.

You said it doesn't go away at all when the engine gets hot.

I have had some good success with engine flushes. I was recommended to a Wynns product on here many years ago, which is approved (and recommended, I think) by PCGB. It quietened down a noisy lifter on my S2 (which has twice as many as a Lux/turbo) to the point that it's inaudible, and it has stayed quiet for the last 60,000 miles, with use of flush at every service. It's certainly worth a try, as is going back to using the thinner oil as well, just to eliminate the thicker oil from the equation.


Oli.

 

[Hallsy]

Thanks Oli - sounds like a flush or treatment might be worth a try then. I have always been sceptical about further issues they could cause, but you're the second Porsche owner to report good things.

With respect the injector noise, yes, I agree - this was when I first got the car and it was generally a little happy, but nowhere near as pronounced as it is now, in the video.

 

[zcacogp]

Andrew,

Using engine flushes isn't without possible issues; if the engine has a lot of miles on it and hasn't had a flush used before then you can dislodge stuff that is helping seal the oil gaskets and it can thus provoke leaks. That's the much-mentioned concern although I've never had a problem with it. When I first used the flush in my S2 at around 120,000 miles it didn't cause this to happen, and I've never had problems with it in high-mileage VW engines in the past either.

944 Injectors for some reason are often noisy. The ones on my S2 make a right old clatter and I asked my indie about it soon after I bought the car. He said that replacing them may make the noise go away but would cost hundreds of pounds and pointed out that, apart from the noise, the existing ones work perfectly fine. I decided that hundreds of pounds was better left in my wallet (or invested in beer) and stopped worrying about them. Having said that, from what you describe and the video, I'm sure your noise isn't injector-related.


Oli.

 

[TTM]

Have you driven the car at all?
Got this issue once after having the car sat for 3 weeks, it took the loud lifter 30 miles to quiet down.

 

[robdimond]

I had a ticking lifter and an oil change sorted it out. I put some Wynne's lifter treatment in after for good measure and it's not returned...

 

[Hallsy]

Oli - yes, those were my concerns, either moving sludge and causing blockages elsewhere, or as you suggest, creating leaks!! Perhaps the latter would be less of an issue with the thicker oil though.

TTM - yes, that was the first thing I tried. As it had not been used for a few weeks I gave it a good few runs to see if it would clear, but no joy My previous 944S used to occasionally do the same, but would always clear once warm.

Rob - it was the Forte products I had been recommended, but it sounds like Wynns come recommended also. Forte do a 'top end treatment' that you leave in, but I have been advised that you are supposed to flush first. I'm popping to see a friend of mine at his workshop in the week so will see if I can get a couple of bottles to try, I can try the top end treatment and if it works, all good, if not then I will add the flush and change the oil again.

 

[zcacogp]

It's worth noting that engine flushes come in two types; additive types and oil replacement types. The additive types are the most common, with 350 or so CC of stuff you add to the old oil end run it for 20 minutes before draining and refilling with new oil. The other type is a very thin oil which you use once you have drained the old oil. You refill with the flushing oil and run it at idle for 20 minutes or so before draining and refilling with 'regular' oil. I have used this latter type only once, on a very old Mk1 Golf GTi engine. I can't say whether it worked better or worse than the former type but it was quite a lot more hassle and more expensive. Logically, it makes sense that it would do a better job than the additive type.

A third option which I have read about (and heard a couple of older mechanics swear by) is to mix about one part of automatic transmission fluid (which is an oil with very aggressive cleaners) with two parts cheap 'regular' oil, and use this as the engine oil for a couple of hundred miles, running the engine gently. This is meant to be extremely effective at cleaning out all the debris and crud from an engine and leaving it sparkling inside. I've never tried it, but would be happy to do so if I had an old and gunged-up engine and was considering stripping it down to clean it.


Oli.

 

[Hallsy]

Good advice Oli, I did consider the ATF method as had heard it worked, but as I have access to the Forte products for free, or worst case cost price (but he does owe me a few favours so I'm thinking free!!) - I think I will just try these.

With any luck I'll find time to have a look this week

 

[Frenchy]

I have used a valve train cleaner additive in the past with good results, sorted the noisy lifters out and has been fine since.

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: Hallsy

Good advice Oli, I did consider the ATF method as had heard it worked, but as I have access to the Forte products for free, or worst case cost price (but he does owe me a few favours so I'm thinking free!!) - I think I will just try these.

With any luck I'll find time to have a look this week

I'd go for the Forte products first (particularly if they are buckshee!) The ATF/Oil method struck me as being a bit too .... edgy ... for my liking. I'm sure it would work, but it's a bit unguaranteed and if something went wrong then you'd be out there on your own. I'd try it, but probably only on an engine for which I didn't have many other options. (But then I am a coward! [] )


Oli.

 

[ChasR]

I am always a little funny about using additives especially since they can potentially cause more leaks! it is a hard one to call though.

However, I am with TTM here. That almost certainly sounds like a semi stuck lifter. A good run should cure it ; just how have you been driving it? My 951 was terrible for this. If left for a week it sounded like the bottom end was gone accompanied by only half of the cylinders working until the oil pressure went up. My S2 was worse than this (and gave of the same noise) if I left the engine for a month ; damn it was awkward to start then.

 

[Hallsy]

Chas - that was what I tried first, as I say, my S used to do it occasionally, as did my old Eunos - and each of them would quieten down after a few minutes of driving.

I gave this a good run across some country roads a few times, but no joy.

I suspect the tap has always been there as I remember hearing it through traffic, etc with the windows down, but it was pretty quiet - not like it is now!!

 

[Frenchy]

And i repeat, valve train cleaner, i ran mine for some distance still hideously noisy, chucked some of this in and gone in 2 minutes, with no more issues []

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: Frenchy
valve train cleaner

Interesting - wossat then? And how does it differ from Engine Flush?


Oli.

 

[DC911SC]

I always prefered semi synth oil usually mobil 2000 10w40 as it has ok zddp levels, poor zddp levels I understand to lead to tappet wear.
I never had tappet noise related issues with that oil.

Whats your cold and hot oil pressure at the guage out of interest?

I'm not a massive fan of the engine flushes, if you do use I would do 2 oil changes pretty close together after.

 

[Hallsy]

Sorry, missed your post Frenchy.

Forte do a 'top end treatment' that you leave in, although it is advised to use it after a flush I have heard of of it working without.

Sadly my mate didn't have any in stock but he has given me a bottle of the flush, and something else - I've got some new oil and filter on the way, so will give the flush a go at the weekend.

 

[Hallsy]

Strath - it was running Mobil 2000 10w40 before, but it used to burn a bit, so I decided to use the thicker Total Quartz 10w50. Oil pressure and consumption both improved, can't remember figures off hand, believe I had circa 2 bar at hot idle - will remind myself next time I fire it up.

 

[ChasR]

Some people will disagree with me and say it is overkill but I used to run my 951 on 10W60 Mobil 1. Plenty of ZDDP and it seemed to be a good oil.

It never went below 4 Bar or above 5 most of the . On the hottest of days it will drop to 4 Bar hot idle. On a track it may have dropped a little more but still well above 3 Bar. I was going to use 10W40 although a well known specialist told me to use it, albeit of the Valvoline brand (their 20W50 in the Stag was superb stuff over any other 20W50 I tried to be fair ; almost none existant oil pressure at idle to having 1-1.5bar at idle even if I was pushing the intervals on an oil change ; it never would stay with the Unipart or Halfords 'Classic' shite.

I did think about using 10W50 however and I reckon it may have done the trick.

If you want an oil debate try my new retro ; the CVH top end is meant to like 10W40/50 for the sake of the tappets and camshaft but the bottom end (Zetec) is meant to run on 5W30. Slightly issue. I plan to compromise on 5W40 .

EDIT: Unit inaccuracy!

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: ChasR
If you want an oil debate try my new retro ; the CVH top end is meant to like 10W40/50 for the sake of the tappets and camshaft but the bottom end (Zetec) is meant to run on 5W30. Slightly issue. I plan to compromise on 5W40 .

Why not try running it on water. Or golden syrup. Or bleach. Or something like that, so you can ruin it nice and quickly and buy another 944 and join us here properly again ....

[]

Oli.