944 turbo tuning

[nicksonmsport]

hi i currently own an s2, and just picked up an 86 turbo a few days ago which i have been using as a daily until the tax runs out at the end of the month.

it will then be stripped caged, buckets/harnesses suspension etc the car is going to be my track day car and a bit of advertising for the buisness

the car already has a boost enhancer and an amd chip and has rolling roads of 280bhp and 310 ft lb torque. although like always im after more !

i run a motorsport fabrication buisness so all work will be carried out by myself, we will start with the basics such as bigger intercooler, 3inch downpipe and custom exhaust, custom inlet pipes, induction filter and cold air feed etc but i just wanted some info from people with knowledge of the turbo engine and its strengths, weaknesses and areas that it responds well to tuning.

im used to tuning more modern turbo charged cars where some ecus will adapt air/fuel with extra boost up to a point, usuall being where larger injectors are needed and then its a case of custom ecu mapping.
how does the 944 turbo control its boost and air/fuel, i take it the amd chip takes car of extra fuel and air for increased boost?

if i wanted to increase the boost with a manual or electronic boost controller, then will the ecu/chip adapt and provide extra fuel?? or will it need a remap by the likes of chip wizards?

what sort of power/torque can be had from the std turbo and injectors with a boost increase and supporting mods listed above

i know a dual port wastegate is a good starting mod so will be fitting one.

whats the limit and the parts required to reach the limit on std turbo/injectors.

i would like to fit a larger turbo such as one of the lindsey racing items, and larger injectors so i can achieve over 400hp, but what would be required on the ecu side of things to support this. would i need standalone? or will a remap support this sort of power.

any ideas, info from people who have gone on the power hunt with a 944 turbo would be great.

many thanks
nick

 

[edh]

Ooh - can i go first.. []

if it's an '86 then it should have the earlier 26/6 turbo, and you're pretty much on the limit already as it just won't move any more air. Dual port wastegate gives you better boost control, and in theory allows you to hold boost to the redline, just don't expect 15psi at 6k rpm...

Anything you do needs a remap / new chip with the standard AFM / DME (ecu) setup. Aftermarket is the way to go if you're planning to develop gradually, or want more control, with established MAF offerings from Vitesse in the US, although I would suggest you check out this http://www.augmentautomotive.co.uk/augtronic - UK based and a bit more modern...

For Hybrid BB turbos - I'd go to SPS (Simon Peckham) - probably easiest reached through JMgarage in Bournemouth. That's also the place to go for 3.2 conversions if you want monster torque and power...

I would suggest you pick a number (hp and / or budget) to aim at & then choose your route accordingly. There are a couple of 400hp 2.5l UK cars, so that is possible with a standard 'ish car (well bottom end at least) - MarkK has one that was built by Promax who could put together the parts you need off the shelf I think.

As always, belts, (possibly waterpump), fresh fluids, filters, plugs/leads/cap come first, then suspension and brakes, then power []

 

[MarkK]

Speak to Andy Everett at Promax,tell him what you are after and he will give you some guidance.For an out and out track car that will be driven hard lap after lap, I would go for relatively simple tuning,intercooler,injectors 55lb,Promax chips,DPW,Baily DV30,KN filter panel,Greddy electronic boost,exhaust,check everything is working as it should,lighten,roll cage,quality track suspension,and you are pretty much sorted 300-310 bhp with lightened car,suspension and track tyres you will blow most things into the weeds []
You will need an LSD as an 86 doesn't have one,maybe a KAAZ.
Let us hear how you get on maybe a build thread?
I did a similar thing in 2010, if you do a search for "something I have been working on" and there are pics and description from day 1 to end of a full season of club racing in a road legal turbo.

 

[nicksonmsport]

thanks for your info yes your right it will have the smaller turbo and you can feel it backing off toward the top of the rev range, although it does give a good shove at around 4krpm.

is it worth just fitting a standalone management, i have an emerald system on my caterham 7 which is around £600, i have never really trusted these chips that are generic and have no fine tune for your engine in particular. as you said i have always needed cars remapped as soon as anthing was touched.

who are the people to see regarding re maps? im in surrey. i would be keen to fit my custom inlet/exhaust etc and then have the car remapped and setup correctly rather than the generic map its currently running. fit dual port wg and boost controller and see how the car runs, if i can also find a cheap enough turbo from an se that would be a bonus to ensure a bit more top end power.

what sort of power will the std maf support? if i went standalone could you delete the maf and run map instead?


obviously suspension/brakes/chassis will be fully uprated and developed along with any power mods. i am just asking for advice on the 944 turbo engine side of things atm.

while i am running a simple setup i may buy a spare block/head and modify this on the side, ready for a proper turbo/injector upgrade in the future.



i would like to fit a larger turbo as the turbo not holding boost to the redline is pretty annoying, and im used to cars with over 400hp so even though the car isnt slow, i would like a bit more power.

with regards to budget/ power levels to aim for. for the minute i just want to add simple std tuning products to help as much as possible like decent exhaust and inlet/cooling and possibly an upgrade to the se turbocharger. i would be happy with 350+ hp and good strong torque for the minute. as the car will be put on an extensive diet

after getting to grips with the car as it is and developing the chassis, i would love to put 450+ hp in the car. i dont mind spending some money as we will save a huge amount as we will carry out all prep/fabrication and mechanical work on the car.

many thanks
nick

 

[Mike_Pollock]

Marks 400bhp monster

 

[nicksonmsport]

mark thanks for your input, i had a quick chat with someone at promax last week, but nothing to in depth.
i will of course start a build thread for all to see once the car starts progressing. at the minute im just enjoying the drive to work and went for a blat today (beautiful sunday afternoon), until the tax runs out. then stripping/caging etc will commence.

we specialise in fabrication and custom cages etc so will be doing custom products for the car throughout!

the only part i need help in atm is the specifics of tuning the 944 turbo, as i have always been involved with jap stuff in the past and thought it was time to have a go with something else, i also have an s2 i will also most likely prep for race/track use to sell on.

 

[edh]

it has an AFM, not a MAF as standard. It's not a limiting factor as such I think, but is not very flexible. Wayne @ chipwizards can do you a custom map.

This is a bit out of date now, but the specs on the cars in Rick's league table give you an idea of what people have been doing.
http://www.cannell.co.uk/944 UK League.htm

If you want a lot more than 300hp, you really need a bigger turbo than the 26/8 from the later 250 turbos. Std injectors are maxed out around 300 I believe.

The safest / easiest way to do this is just to call Promax or JM garage & ask them for all the bits to get to whatever hp you're aiming for - these routes are tested and proven.

 

[nicksonmsport]

so if the car is already running 280hp the std injectors are near the limit anyway even on the smaller turbo.

maybe for the minute a simple remap once the exhaust/inlet is all fabricated, and a dual port wastegate, boost controller would be sufficient.

then collect parts for large turbo setup and possibly forged engine on the side while researching what others have done. seems the us has a large market for serious turbos. seen a few 500whp machines over there.

 

[sulzeruk]

I have a forged bottom end out of a 1986 car in good nick here if you are a looking for a spare. I also have a 250 BHP turbo complete head for refurb here as well, needs guides but nice and never skimmed. I also have a complete drop in early running engine.
Alasdair

 

[nicksonmsport]

let me know what your after for the engines and i will have a think about it
cheers

 

[nicksonmsport]

after reading a few of these comments im starting to wonder if my current power is correct?

there is rolling road printout for the car back in 1998!

notes were- boost control ecu cleaned, amd re chip, wastegate replaced

summary is 266bhp at fly @ 5600rpm
307 ft lb @3989rpm

can this power level be achieved from an 86 with smaller turbo, with just a re chip, there doesnt seem to be any kind of MBC for increasing boost, so how does re chip increase power?
there are no other supporting mods apart from a boost enhancer. exhaust and inlet are std
there is also a dyno plot for the car before the mods were carried out showing exactly 220 bhp @6349rpm and 216 ft lb torque @ 4000rpm

thanks
nick

 

[Lowtimer]

ORIGINAL: nicksonmsport
seems the us has a large market for serious turbos. seen a few 500whp machines over there.

Strictly speaking, what you have seen is a few *claimed* 500 RWHP machines. Dynos seem to work differently over there.

 

[edh]

I think it sounds about right

The boost enhancer will be set at a higher pressure than your wastegate, and as it sits in the wastegate control line it delays the wastegate opening, allowing a boost spike in the midrange.

The wastegate may also be shimmed to a higher pressure

It's a cheap, crude and pretty effective method. The first 50hp are easy []

ORIGINAL: nicksonmsport

after reading a few of these comments im starting to wonder if my current power is correct?

there is rolling road printout for the car back in 1998!

notes were- boost control ecu cleaned, amd re chip, wastegate replaced

summary is 266bhp at fly @ 5600rpm
307 ft lb @3989rpm

can this power level be achieved from an 86 with smaller turbo, with just a re chip, there doesnt seem to be any kind of MBC for increasing boost, so how does re chip increase power?
there are no other supporting mods apart from a boost enhancer. exhaust and inlet are std
there is also a dyno plot for the car before the mods were carried out showing exactly 220 bhp @6349rpm and 216 ft lb torque @ 4000rpm

thanks
nick

 

[Hilux]

Moderators - apologies if I shouldnt ask the following.....................

we specialise in fabrication and custom cages etc so will be doing custom products for the car throughout!

Thats interesting..................I had a 944T but now have a Mk 1 Golf track car (but still hang around on here as its a nice place to be with nice people)

Now its re-built and up and running with an ABF I am tracking it a few times this year with a view to a complete strip down and re-paint and installing an Audi 20v Turbo. I can weld a bit and fabricate but I am not confident enough to do roll cages so need one fabricated and fitted.

May I assume you are the welding masterclass people in Haslemere? Superb quality so I`m interested in your services.

 

[nicksonmsport]

i know the rules for advertising, im not trying to advertise at all i was just pointing out that we will be carrying out all the work ourselfs and thought you lot may be interested in what we do! i know there is a fine line between advertising and not advertising, but there are many companys on here who are not traders on the site, showing people what they do!

we are an official trader on other forum sites, but im not offering any services or trying to sell any products on this site. just trying to be a part of a porsche community because i love porsches and i have one myself, and its good to get advice from other owners as im new to porsche ownership myself!

if any moderators want to pm me with exactly how i need to conduct myself etc then that would be no problem. i know there are rules to follow! but it would be a shame if i wasnt allowed to show you the build of my 944 turbo track car just because i run a buisness!

if any1 is interested and mods do not mind then your welcome to look at our facebook page to see the sort of thing we usually do. we are not a porsche specialist or anything, we have just chosen the 944 turbo as a project for ourselfs for some trackday fun this year! we deal with pretty much any car there is!

i wont put a link up in case mods do not approve. if they do then i will add one.

thanks
nick

 

[nicksonmsport]

just realised i missed the point of your post lol. i thought u were pointing out to mods that i may be advertising, but now i realise you were enquiring.

contact me directly as i dont want to be seen advertising on the forum
thanks
nick

 

[nicksonmsport]

back to edh's comment. ok well thats good to know, thanks

i still cant quite get my head round these chip sets, i just dont trust them, or see how a decent map can be achieved just by telling some1 what bits your car has on it, and then they give u a chip/map to suit. i have always had custom remaps for my previous cars, and seeing how much work goes into achieving a decent map, i cant believe some1 can just provide a chip thats all good to go without even having the car near them!

based on this judgement i would much prefer a custom map from the likes of chip wizards. can they access the std chips and remap to suit most applications then? can i get rid of the amd chips that are already on the car and he will map the std chips, or do i need to keep the amd chips??

also is the uprated afm/maf kit you can get worthwhile, if the std afm does not have a limiting factor??

tbh after looking into the prices for some items, i can see a decent spec 951 could turn into 996 turbo money which is pretty silly. i would be happy with larger injectors, dual port, boost controller, larger intercooler, exhaust, inlet etc and a slightly larger turbo, then a remap (chip wizards), to try for a safe and reliable 350-400hp without having to forge the engine and fit a £2k clutch to handle any more power!
would people recommend fitting a headgasket and uprated bolts/studs for this sort of build, and if so which hg is a good bet as i have heard varying reviews on the different makes.

does this seem a realistic semi budget build? tbh the horsepower part doesnt really bother me its more just a benchmark. as long as the car has a slightly larger turbo that will provide stronger boost to the redline, and decent mid range and top end punch, combined with a decent torque figure and safe fueling/map im happy.
any suggestions for a suitable turbo?

on another note, today i removed all the rear interior seats/carpets/speakers/sound mats/spare wheel/seatbelts etc to start on the weight saving. amazing how much difference it makes, although im not looking forward to getting rid of the glue lol. the black leather seats are already sold, so soon as they are collected the front interior/carpets etc can all come out for further weight saving. and then the lovely job of removing all the floor sound matting. ready for a pair of buckets on welded rails/harnesses.

one thing i did notice today is that the gearbox is whining a bit on the overrun! am i right in thinking its the pinion bearing?
thanks

 

[Hilux]

ORIGINAL: nicksonmsport

just realised i missed the point of your post lol. i thought u were pointing out to mods that i may be advertising, but now i realise you were enquiring.

contact me directly as i dont want to be seen advertising on the forum
thanks
nick

I only asked if you were the people with fantastic fabrication skills in Haslemere [] as updates on work to the 944 will be well worth looking forward to.

 

[nicksonmsport]

yes we are very close to haslemere in a place called fernhurst. although there is another similar company on site ''historic motorsport'' so dont get us mixed up lol. i run nickson motorsport, and yes we do have a very good reputation for our fabrication and welding work!

im looking forward to updates as well! i really like this car, and reckon it could be pretty awsome on track once a few mods are carried out. i spend my whole life building other peoples race/track/drift cars and in the 4 years i have been running the buisness i havnt done a single track day of my own! hopefully that will all change very soon, but the only limiting factor is the limited time i can spend on my own cars rather than customer work! i have a few other projects of my own on the go including an 07 caterham 7, 2 door mk1 escort, a gsxr400 go kart, an s2 944, and now the turbo lol. so i need to concentrate on getting at least one project finished so i can have some fun of my own at last!

 

[Lowtimer]

i still cant quite get my head round these chip sets, i just dont trust them, or see how a decent map can be achieved just by telling some1 what bits your car has on it, and then they give u a chip/map to suit. i have always had custom remaps for my previous cars, and seeing how much work goes into achieving a decent map, i cant believe some1 can just provide a chip thats all good to go without even having the car near them!

Obviously a custom map is the best thing of all, but I think you are missing the point about chip sets. Porsche did not custom map every car. They did a single mapping on a sample car, that suited the engine and peripherals installed as standard, knocked it back a bit to be conservative, and that's the map you got on every other car they built until they changed the mechanical spec.

I am sure there are some dubious chipsets out there, but the reputable aftermarket chipsets are not dreamed up out of thin air: what they do is go to someone like Wayne with a particular mechanical configuration, get him to map it, make it a conservative map, and then fit it to cars with exactly the same configuration of parts. It's exactly the same process as the factory did when they were building them new.

Of course if you subsequently monkey about with it, e.g. change the exhaust or the intercooler, you are in experimental territory and really need a custom map because you have a custom configuration. But the whole point of something like a Promax Level 1 or Level 2 conversion is it is *not* a custom configuration - it is a known configuration, and there are many like it.