944S (probable) cam belt woes

[millimeep]

Yep Oli is right, I'm going to replace the belts, and the dizzy cap & rotor as they were in terrible condition. Then it'll be the nerve wracking see what happens when I try to fire it up... place your bets now folks [8D] Suzie got on the train to GSF in Heathrow and fetched the bits. Unfortunately the Bank Holiday has reduced the supply of small cheap hire cars, so the next instalment of this saga is in almost two weeks! I cycle to work anyway, but it means two more weeks of public transport at the weekends and during the week [] Tref, I don't think the cams seized, as when it failed, and we were trying to restart before really realising what happened, it alternated between the horrible no compression sound, and turning over with some compression, and trying to fire. So I'm inclined to think it's a belt failure that's a bit random in nature [&:] And one more question, on this pic you can see the balance belt tensioner, which isn't actually in contact with the belt, in fact in can be spun by hand... so what's going on here?

 

[zcacogp]

My one (well, one of many) concern is the battery ... you'll have turned it over on the battery for some time now, and it will have been sitting for a while without running too. Do you have a back-up plan in place to ensure that you have enough juice for the nerve-wracking moment when you have changed the belts? Maybe a slightly larger hire car and a set of jump leads, perhaps? Where has this car died anyway? Is there anyone on here who is nearby who could lend a hand? (You know where I am; do ask if it is local to me.) Oli.

 

[944 man]

Have you only bought one belt, two belts, or both belts and all of the rollers and tensioners? Im confident that one belt alone wont get the car running again; although it may make it run enough to completely ruin a currently lightly damaged engine. Youd be better off joining the AA and having the car recovered in a couple of days... Thatll cost about £80 and I guarantee that itll not do any further damage. Simon

 

[millimeep]

The car is on the drive of Suzie's cousin's house, between Bedford and Cambridge, anyone who wants to help would be very gratefully welcomed! (It's about 60 miles from London Oli) We'll be hiring the Smart car again as it worked out to £19 + £18 petrol which you really can't argue with [] We'll be going up on Sunday May 31. And of course, lunch will be provided for any helpers [] It was quite lucky in some ways as we only got to the end of the road rather than halfway down the A1 [] As the hire car has ended up being almost two weeks away, I'll have some more funds now, so I'll be investing in some tensioners to go with the two belts (and dizzy cap & rotor arm) that we got yesterday. The battery was still ok on Sunday - I'll be bringing my battery charger next time, the first job will be getting it on charge while I get on with the belts. As it failed at low speed, and was even trying to fire up afterwards, I'll be fitting the belts first to see what happens - I'm going on the principle that if we're really lucky then it'll work, if not then the head will have to come off anyway... Insurance is due soon (it all comes at once [&:]), so we'll be getting breakdown cover included if all else fails.

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: 944 man Im confident that one belt alone wont get the car running again; although it may make it run enough to completely ruin a currently lightly damaged engine.

Interesting ... why do you say that?

Youd be better off joining the AA and having the car recovered in a couple of days... Thatll cost about £80 and I guarantee that itll not do any further damage.

That does sound like a sensible plan, depending upon cash ... Oli.

 

[JamesO]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

ORIGINAL: 944 man Im confident that one belt alone wont get the car running again; although it may make it run enough to completely ruin a currently lightly damaged engine.

Interesting ... why do you say that?

Youd be better off joining the AA and having the car recovered in a couple of days... Thatll cost about £80 and I guarantee that itll not do any further damage.

That does sound like a sensible plan, depending upon cash ... Oli.

Bent valves going up and down may not do the head any favours. A dropped/broken valve will cause carnage.

 

[random hero]

"As it failed at low speed, and was even trying to fire up afterwards, I'll be fitting the belts first to see what happens - I'm going on the principle that if we're really lucky then it'll work, if not then the head will have to come off anyway..." Not wanting to be doom and gloom but my cam belt fell off when the water pump wheel parted company with the pump when the car was running at 800rpm on tick over and it bent 4 of the valves !!

 

[zcacogp]

JamesO, I see what you mean by that; I read Simon's post as implying that one belt would cause further damage where two belts would possibly not ... which puzzled me. Oli.

 

[JamesO]

Yeah, I would spring for AA or whatever cover (probably not much more than a tank of petrol or a good night out) and take it apart at my leisure. A bit sneaky but take somebody with you with good recovery cover as quite often its the cardholder that has cover even as a passenger.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

A bit sneaky but take somebody with you with good recovery cover as quite often its the cardholder that has cover even as a passenger.

I couldn't advise this, even though AA cover at least would, indeed, allow a passenger to call for assistance even if it's not their car. I also can't believe anyone would be so dishonest as recommending making sure the car doesn't look as if it's sat for weeks unused if you did call recovery out. [8|]

 

[tref]

ORIGINAL: JamesO Bent valves going up and down may not do the head any favours. A dropped/broken valve will cause carnage.

If you know any-one with an endoscope, pull the plugs and check for this before trying it.

 

[millimeep]

An update on possibly the slowest repair ever [] Between you, you've convinced me that just putting new belts on and hoping for the best isn't a good idea [:-] Anyway, the car is now at home where I can work on it, and I'll make a start on beheading it today. So this is what I'm wondering about now...

ORIGINAL: elvis ... (although make sure you follow the manual to the letter removing the cams [link=http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=361615&mpage=1&key=񘒏]to make sure you don't do this[/link]..) ...

If I follow the official manual, then it mentions holding the cams down with special tools, after removing the bearing covers from cylinders 1 & 3. Obviously I don't have those tools, so what have others done? Have tried a search here, but couldn't find anything, and the very helpful Clark's Garage doesn't mention the S.

 

[zcacogp]

Well done on getting it home. That's going to make the repair much easier. I have seen a thread on here somewhere from someone who took the cams off his S2, and because they didn't come up evenly (as in, one end came up before the other, as the caps weren't removed evenly), they got broken. Not snapped, but there is a disk-like section along their length, that fits down between two parts of the head (this is a terrible description), and this broke off as it had force put on it. A search is probably your friend, but I suspect that any special tools mentioned would be to prevent this sort of thing. And, if they are, then you can get around the need for their use by simply remove the caps very equally, very slowly. As far as I know the S head is pretty much identical to the S2. (To the extent that I think they use the same cam belts and cam chain.) So go with the S2 instructions. Oli.

 

[millimeep]

Yep, that's the thread by Elvis linked in his post earlier in this thread, and quoted above. And that's my Plan B, undo the bolts very slowly, and tap the bearings gently with a lump of wood...

 

[elvis]

As previously mentioned, I'm the one who totalled my cams.. I've just reread the manual and it does indeed call for special tools so 'follow to the letter' wasn't the best thing to write. All the tools do is make it easier to bring the cams up straight as you're loosening at two point rather than across four cam caps. Basically what you need to do is ensure that the cams come up straight, you can use the cam caps as substitutes for the tools, but you need to remove the front bearing bridge before removing the cams (this is what wrecked mine) and be absolutely sure that they come up straight. On most engines you'll get away with some misalignment, you won't on this one [] To recap: Remove the front double bearing bridge before doing anything to the cams and be very careful that the cams don't hang up on the bearing at the very front of the head.

 

[millimeep]

ORIGINAL: sc0tty I'm not being funny millimeep, but why don't you save yourself all this hassle and get the car to your specialist and let him do all the work? Far easier in my book. Also, how come your belt failed in the first place? it is only 3 years/14,000 miles old. When the belt was changed 3 year ago did you change the balance belts and all the required rollers, pulleys and auxillary belts, or just the cambelt?

I've always worked on my own cars, have done for over 20 years now, and I enjoy it in a strange kind of way... The belt wasn't changed by me, that was quoted from the previous owner's service history, we got the car in June 2007, so I'm wondering why it failed too [8|] The invoice says it was a 944 that had it's belts changed, but not the registration. Also it's the car's 21st birthday today, just had a look and it was registered on the 7th June 1988 Nothing obvious found so far One annoying thing is that on two previous cars, (Volvo 240 and Citroen BX), I've done cambelts as a precaution [&:] (Volvo was easy, BX was tricky due to lack of space) As it turns out, the 944 is a joy to work on, everything I did today (see next post) went well without any real problems - even the six exhaust bolts came out without too much grief []

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: sc0tty ... why don't you save yourself all this hassle and get the car to your specialist and let him do all the work? 

Scotty, Cash? Can't afford it? Like the challenge? Want to be sure that the job is done well, hence would rather do it yourself? All of the above are reasons why I do all the spannering on my cars myself. Millimeep - bravo on your enthusiasm and keep us (the forum) posted. I hope it all comes out well. Oli.

 

[millimeep]

ORIGINAL: elvis As previously mentioned, I'm the one who totalled my cams.. I've just reread the manual and it does indeed call for special tools so 'follow to the letter' wasn't the best thing to write. All the tools do is make it easier to bring the cams up straight as you're loosening at two point rather than across four cam caps. Basically what you need to do is ensure that the cams come up straight, you can use the cam caps as substitutes for the tools, but you need to remove the front bearing bridge before removing the cams (this is what wrecked mine) and be absolutely sure that they come up straight. On most engines you'll get away with some misalignment, you won't on this one [] To recap: Remove the front double bearing bridge before doing anything to the cams and be very careful that the cams don't hang up on the bearing at the very front of the head.

Thanks for the removal tips! As to today's progress... I've removed the air filter, injectors, inlet manifold, head and belt covers, power steering and alternator belts, distributor cap and rotor, and disconnected the exhaust. The inlet valves I can see through the inlet ports look ok, but I'll press on anyway. One bit of cheering news is that the head gasket set is cheapest for the S on GSF [] So next up is removing the belts, cams and head.

 

[millimeep]

More bits off yesterday, but now I'm a little bit stuck [&:] Anyone know what size the 12 point spline thingy is for the camshaft sproket? I'm going to get myself a set as the cam bearing bolts have smaller 12 point bolts too... Also, it looks like I need to get the tensioner out of the way, as it looks like I need to remove to get the belt off? Thanks! Iain

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: millimeep Anyone know what size the 12 point spline thingy is for the camshaft sproket? I'm going to get myself a set as the cam bearing bolts have smaller 12 point bolts too...

If you buy a set then it will probably have the right size in it .... further than that I can't help, sorry. If you can post a photo and give an idea of dimension then I could have a look at my set and tell you which one would most likely fit, but this is getting a bit heath-robinson. Or look at the Porsche manual? It usually lists bolt sizes there, so may list tool sizes as well. All available from cannell.co.uk. Oli.