968 Ducts Fitted

[PJS917]

I have some handy little brackets that allow 968 ducts to be fitted to standard arms, there is no drilling involved
so the 944 arm maintains its strength. They bolt on to the roll bar mount. I no longer need them as I have fitted 968 arms to my car but if anyone is interested in them let me know.

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: appletonn

Hmm, lowered significantly - that would be mine then! Where does one acquire said kit from, may I ask?

I knew this tuning lark was addictive, but I am going to have to get some 944 tuning patches at this rate...

Thanks
Nick

You definately want to get them fitted if that is the case. See the link below. You want the track bushings which are an extra $25. Not particularly expensive and you can fit them yourself if you have the time and inclination. Hartech charged me £150 to install them. You might want to consider the 19mm spindle as well although you will have to open out the hole in your hub. A bit more expense to open out the hole properly but you'd have piece of mind with the thicker spindle.

Once fitted don't be concerned at how the installation looks. The extended pin, to my eye at least, looked way too long and slender and I had a few sleepless nights worrying about how strong these things are, however I canvassed the opinions of users on Rennlist (of which there are many) and the kit got an overwhelming thumbs up with no-one reporting any failures or even stories or hints of rumours of failures so the kit appears to be robust enough for the job. In fact just this week a chap in the states who had the stock 17mm spindle kit installed who had unfortunatley had a head on collision to his drivers side (he was OK thankfully) posted photos showing the trashed front end, broken wishbone but the pin, though bent, was intact. I am now sleeping soundly.

http://www.rennbay.com/geometry-correction-ball-joint-kit-p-36.html

 

[edh]

Although if your car is much stiffer - and doesn't roll as much - maybe you'll be OK?

AFAIK Hartech claim not to have had any failures on their remanufactured arms.

 

[appletonn]

Hmm, there's definitely not much give at all in the front suspension and although it is lower than standard, it still clears speed humps (slowly & only just...) so I'll see how I go for now.

Thanks
Nick

 

[Peter Empson]

After my experiences I wouldn't take the risk if the car is going to be tracked or driven very hard. My car was quite a bit stiffer than standard, with 968 Mo30 arb's and at the time not massively lowered when the pin sheared. Possibly just bad luck but I wouldn't take the risk again, they were after all 20 years old (I may change my hubs for the same reason when funds have recovered).
I have the 19mm Rennbay kit fitted now and am very happy with the results.

 

[edh]

- it'll be crank scrapers and dry sumping next []

There's plenty of things that you can get worried about if you read all the forums - headgaskets, low oil pressure, oil starvation, waterpump, belts, rust.....
Regular inspection & good maintenance should catch most things.

I know the 17mm kit is a relatively cheap project, but I still can't see it's an essential one if the component is fine. I completely understand why you'd want to do it having experienced a suspension failure, & it certainly makes sense once the ball joint shows signs of wear.

After taking into account all the bad news stories, these cars are very strong & are excellent track / road cars. They are getting older and will need money spending on them. I reckon £2-3k a year on a combination of consumables (tyres, brakes, fluids) and on general upkeep / upgrades is a good estimate for a road car that sees regular track use. Not bad for a 300 bhp 160 mph car that won't see any serious depreciation now.

 

[Peter Empson]

Fair point Ed!
The trouble with the failure on mine is that there was no warning, it had been checked recently (my car is definately over serviced) and was cosmetically fine, the ball joint itself wasn't worn either. I can cope with the thought of the engine failing and the like, but when it comes to wheels falling off or brakes failing I get a bit nervous []

I agree the 944 is a remarkably robust car, and mine has endured an awful lot of track days over the years []. I'm itching to get it back onto track as soon as I get it back.

 

[appletonn]

Thanks for that edh - you posted what I was thinking. I'd never take it over 30mph if i worried about all of the 'what ifs'! I think that occasional track use with a proactive maintenance philosophy and starting with a decent solid car in the first place should suffice for me.

I admit that I have the upgrade bug, but that has to be tempered by some financial reality too![]

As the car will only be doing 5000'ish miles a year with 4 or 5 trackdays thrown in, I will trying to keep on top of all of the key areas through regular use and inspection. As parts wear out, then would i be tempted to upgrade them? Definitely, as that's part of the fun!

Your point about the paranoia that can set in as you read about all of the potential problems that can occur with these old cars is right on the money too - sometimes ignorance is bliss, however briefly![8|]

There is no wear whatsoever with my front balljoints and there is evidence of new lower arms a couple of years back, so I'll be keeping them stock for now... ...well until the piggy bank fills up again, anyway!

TTFN

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: Peter Empson
I'm itching to get it back onto track as soon as I get it back.

see my sig - first one booked for Oulton Park on Feb 29th []
Mine's booked in for servicing, new gauges (from ETB - thanks for the link), pads, fluid & some minor paint to sills / wings. I'm too busy to do any of it myself (and it's too cold!).

 

[appletonn]

I've had an email to invite me to a 'Lotus on track' trackday at the Palmer bedford site on the 16th Feb - £99 for the day.

Email below:

Morning all,
>
> So to book on the front engined Porsche trackday @ Bedford Autodrome (full
> GT circuit) on the 16th of February please send a paypal payment of £99 to
> paul@lotus-on-track.com with reference to trackday on 16th @ Bedford. You
> will then recieve a confirmation email from Paul and final instructions a
> few days before the event. Check out http://www.lotus-on-track.com for
> details on the circuit etc etc.
>
> There is no specific meeting point for front engined porker folk but ill
> be there bright and early in a Blue 968 Club Sport reg K277 RMR and would
> be glad to meet you so please come and introduce yourself Email me on
> phil @ marshalsea dot com if youve got any issues!
>
> Some disclaimery information. Im organising this with the sole intention
> of getting more porkers on track. I have no affiliation with lotus on
> track apart from being a member of their club and having done numerous
> trackdays both here and abroad with them. They will take your money you
> become their customer therefore any complaints please direct to them or
> read their website.
>
> For track day newbies you will need you driving licence (both parts) and a
> helmet (available to hire). I would also recommend doing some instruction.
> I shall get details but normally its 10 quid for a 20 minute slot. Make
> sure your car is roadworthy, oil, water, brake and air all up to the
> correct levels. Pay attention to the driver briefing start slow and get
> quicker
>
> Think thats about it look fwd to it
>
> Phil


Not sure whether to give that a go, or wait for the Oulton one on the 29th - either way, should have my new tyres on, so more chance of keeping the pointy end in the right direction!

Thanks

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: edh

Although if your car is much stiffer - and doesn't roll as much - maybe you'll be OK?

AFAIK Hartech claim not to have had any failures on their remanufactured arms.

Hi EDH,

Its nothing to do with roll as in the sense of stiffness, it is to do with Roll Centre which is a geometrical calculation of the angle the suspension arm sits at in comparison to the suspension and where the weight is borne. Fitting longer pins will NOT make a car roll more or less. Its like stiffness does not always make for faster cornering If it did we would not bother with springs at all!
If you lower the car you really need to fit the longer pins or change your wishbones to Charleys, Racers Edge etc who make arms to correct the geometry when you lower the car. That is if you are intending to drive the car hard.
If you are just dropping it for aesthetics well thats a different matter but it still would be advisable.
What is Hartechs warranty like on arms that are fitted to significantly lowered cars?

Cheers
Tom

PS Whats the matter with dry sumping????? []

 

[appletonn]

Tom,
with standard arms and lowered then, as the car rolls or dives, the front wheel camber etc won't follow the stock prescribed path?


So leaving aside the breaking pin scenario ([&:]) I could be looking at 'funny' tyre wear and compromised tyre footprint at various steering/suspension compression angles?

I think I need to work on the soft organic matter behind the wheel, before I make any further enhancements - some tuition for me!

I think the pin upgrade will have to wait for some balljoint wear, unfortunately.

If, however, after my first trackday, I find too little front end grip or otherwise cack-handed cornering, I reserve the right to blame it all on the balljoint pint scenario rather than any shortcomings in the driver's ability and have the pin upgrade done post haste....!![8D]

TTFN

 

[Peter Empson]

Please stop talking about February track days [] I didn't even dare book the RS day at Oulton in March as I wasn't sure how it'd be running by then []

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: tommo951

ORIGINAL: edh

Although if your car is much stiffer - and doesn't roll as much - maybe you'll be OK?

AFAIK Hartech claim not to have had any failures on their remanufactured arms.

Hi EDH,

Its nothing to do with roll as in the sense of stiffness, it is to do with Roll Centre which is a geometrical calculation of the angle the suspension arm sits at in comparison to the suspension and where the weight is borne. Fitting longer pins will NOT make a car roll more or less. Its like stiffness does not always make for faster cornering If it did we would not bother with springs at all!
If you lower the car you really need to fit the longer pins or change your wishbones to Charleys, Racers Edge etc who make arms to correct the geometry when you lower the car. That is if you are intending to drive the car hard.
If you are just dropping it for aesthetics well thats a different matter but it still would be advisable.
What is Hartechs warranty like on arms that are fitted to significantly lowered cars?

Cheers
Tom

PS Whats the matter with dry sumping????? []

I'd love to dry sump the car [] - just wouldn't have any money left for trackdays for a couple of years.

I don't have any knowledge of the mechanics of suspension, but had envisaged that if the geometry is slightly out through lowering, the more the car rolls, the greater the chance is of the the balljoints reaching the end of their travel?

My car is fairly low, on Ledas & won the BARC sprint championship in 2005 (not me driving []), so it can't be all that bad []

I get most tyre wear on the outer edge of the fronts - but that's mainly through my driving inadequacies. I'm trying to stay on the brakes deeper into the corner now to keep the weight forward & reduce understeer. I'm going to get some more camber added to the fronts this year.

That Lotus day is good value - although I'm not a great fan of Bedford. Plenty of run-off for a first outing though. Oulton is far less forgiving in places, but much more stimulating []

 

[Big Dave]

"[Please stop talking about February track days [] I didn't even dare book the RS day at Oulton in March as I wasn't sure how it'd be running by then []]"

Na you big woose...

Ive got loads of stuff to do on mine yet + i booked it..RS, chasing here we come...[][][][][]
Its a way of getting myself in gear to do the jobs....

 

[944Turbo]

With the 19mm pins how much metal remains around it? Pins are steel and iirc hubs in that area are alloy - still not decided what to do
Tony
Lowered car [8|]

 

[Hilux]

Although if your car is much stiffer - and doesn't roll as much - maybe you'll be OK?

The pin shears (I understand) primarily through excess dive at the front under heavy braking. Keep a relatively soft set up like Mo30 and lower it and you`re bound to go outside the parameters. Fitting a proven suspension upgrade with stock or even Mo30 ARB`s is always going to be a compromise but fit better ARB`s also and the movement parameters decrease. Its called cause and effect, upgrades need to be considered properly or they become bolt on additions.

 

[Peter Empson]

ORIGINAL: Hilux

The pin shears (I understand) primarily through excess dive at the front under heavy braking.

Yep, that's exactly where mine went.

 

[sawood12]

The fact of the matter is that worldwide there is significant evidence that lowered cars on standard ball joints are at risk of either the ball joint pin failing or the end of the arm snapping due to the pin digging into the rim of the socket. These are real cases and not just limited to people that race their cars - Peter is living (thank god) proof of this. I would say without hesitiation that if you lower your car significantly (say 12mm or more) then you should pay some attention to the ball joints or replace the arms with aftermarket alternatives. This is not paranoia. It is pointless burying your head in the sand.

There are two issues here - a handling one in terms of correcting the roll centre. This may not be of concern to most of us who are just keen amatuers and probably wouldn't notice the difference and in this case I'm not aware that it is a safety issue.

The other is definitely a safety issue. I don't know if you have noticed but the end of your wishbone kinks up a bit so that when your car is on a flat surface on stock suspension the ball joint should be round about flat in terms of the position of the socket. If you lower the car your wishbone angle flatten which effectively pushes out the pin significantly reducing the range of movement of the ball joint which causes the failure through over-rotation.

Who knows how long a ball joint will last if you lower your car. You might be lucky and it might last forever and never give you a problem. Then agains it might not, then you definitely will have a problem.

The only possible exception is those of you with M030 arms. These arms do have different part numbers and the M030 suspension is height adjustable so you would think that Porsche would have used arms that can accommodate the adjustment, and I think it has been said on this forum before that the turbo cup race cars used the stock M030 control arms (don't know if this is true but it has been claimed). You need to do your own research - but do it whatever you do. Again i'm not sure what the story is with 968 arms either as again they are different and have larger ball joints so may be able to accommodate some lowering.

However those with lowered non-M030 S2's and turbo's please, please, please consider some form of action. We like to debate the pro's and cons of semi-synthetic vs. fully synthetic oils as if our very lives depended upon it when in reality it will make little or no difference. When it comes to ball joints on lowered cars your life may very well depend on it.

 

[sawood12]

For those who havn't seen this kit this is what it is supposed to do....