981 Cayman to Shake off Boxster Coupe Image?

[Motorhead]

Speaking at the R24 post-Chrismas lunch last Sunday, Garry Sorrell from the Cambridge PC indicated that with the introduction of the 981 Cayman, Porsche intended to make a concerted effort to mark the new car as a distinct model range, presumably to try to shake off it's "Boxster Coupe" image in the eyes of some commentators and enthusiasts. However, I don't recall Gary mentioning how Porsche planned to position the Cayman vis-a-vis the 991 but my brain was a little bit fugged after a few glasses of wine, so I could well have missed something.

Although he didn't elaborate, as part of this process we can expect to see future performance versions of the Cayman. A normally aspirated flat-6 Cayman R seems certain and, perhaps, a Cayman Turbo using the upcoming flat-4 engine?

Will deeds follow words? We can only hope..!

Jeff

 

[Buddy]

Well, that's something we've been waiting to hear as we all know the Cayman can handle a lot more power and the twin turbo flat 4 has been talked of for so long it seems almost mythical. Lets hope the story bears fruit.

 

[flat6]

Maybe this year at the Frankfurt motor show if the rumours are to be believed. http://www.autoevolution.com/news/porsche-cayman-turbo-with-4-cylinder-engine-expected-at-frankfurt-2013-52467.html But why would Porsche go in a different direction for the engine on just one model? What do you think is the long term plan? Boxster as well? 4-banger in a 911? R&D for future engines for a future sub-boxter model? The improved torque band seems to be the major advantage but the rumours say 500Nm torque. That would eclipse even the torque in the 3.8. (The reasoning around improved efficiency makes me wonder why the 981 would be singled out to be the green halo for the range, being the only one producing its 350hp by forced induction whilst other models produce that naturally aspirated). What do you think is the bigger picture guys? Does the Cayman 'need' a turbo?

 

[spyderman]

ORIGINAL: flat6 What do you think is the bigger picture guys? Does the Cayman 'need' a turbo?

Does the 991 need a faster, cheaper rival...?

 

[chrisH]

Jeff, I think he is referring to the way they market the Cayman rather than anything else. The subject of a 4 cylinder Turbo has been aired before on this forum. I can't see this happening at Frankfurt, so soon after the launch which only takes place in March, otherwise it could cause a distraction for buyers from the existing 6 cylinder range. OK, a turbo could offer more mid-range torque but I doubt it would better the max speed of 175 of the S, which is all about top end power that the 3.4/flat 6 puts out so well. Also would it be more or less cost than the S, or an Audi TT-RS, with which it competes? Chris

 

[daro911]

We get an exclusive ride in the new 321bhp Porsche Cayman S, ahead of its launch later this year Verdict Being a passenger in a brand new version of one of the world’s greatest drivers’ cars is frustrating, especially when there’s a snow-bound wilderness to play in. But despite not driving ourselves, we learned plenty about the latest Cayman’s capabilities. Even on snow, it has loads of grip, which bodes well for the car’s ability on tarmac. And when the rear tyres do let go, supreme balance and agility are still there in abundance. It looks and sounds better, too, with a higher-quality interior. As a result, the Cayman continues to nip at the 911’s heels. If you had to pick a place to test Porsche’s latest mid-engined, rear-wheel-drive sports car, the frozen Yukon territory in Canada probably wouldn’t be it. You’re more likely to see four-wheel-drive pick-up trucks than low-slung two-seaters around here – but when Porsche invited us along for a ride in the new Cayman, no amount of snow was going to stop us. “Basically, the car is ready to sell,” chief test engineer Alex Ernst told us. “But there were final adjustments to the production tools. That’s why we’re here. We have to make sure that our cars offer top quality. So far, we are satisfied with the results.” The new Cayman is based on the same chassis as the latest Boxster, and has a 60mm longer wheelbase, a wider track and shorter overhangs than the old car. Its body is also 44 per cent aluminium, which has led to a 30kg weight reduction. One thing’s obvious from the passenger seat: in these slippery conditions the Cayman is masses of fun. But the impact of performance improvements (less weight and an extra 5bhp from its 3.4-litre flat six engine) is more difficult to decipher. Similarly, we can’t feel the benefits of the 15 per cent hike in fuel efficiency, although it’s reassuring to know it’s there. On winter tyres, there’s a surprising amount of traction, even on deep snow, but razor-sharp throttle response means the conditions still demand respect. Unless you possess the drifting skills of legendary rally driver Stig Blomqvist, the recalibrated Sport Plus mode is perfect, allowing freedom to enjoy slides without ever losing control of the car. It’s clear the old Cayman’s natural balance has been carried over. The new electromechanical steering was a bone of contention for the 911, but worked better on the Boxster. Judging by the Cayman’s sharp reactions, it’s not a problem here, either. We couldn’t get a Porsche engineer to admit it, but the lighter and better-balanced Cayman appears far easier to control than the latest 911. On this evidence, it looks like the 911’s closest competition could come from within. Read more: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/porsche/cayman-s/62221/new-porsche-cayman-s#ixzz2ImtFMdSd

 

[chrisH]

“Basically, the car is ready to sell,” chief test engineer Alex Ernst told us. “But there were final adjustments to the production tools. That’s why we’re here. We have to make sure that our cars offer top quality. So far, we are satisfied with the results.”

Jeff, I hope this is true and your concern over early production models tending to be problematic are unfounded. They have until March 1st to get it right when cars will start rolling off the line at Zuffenhausen. Chris

 

[flat6]

If they are going to have a 3rd Cayman model, they need to hand it over to their Renn Sport experts and do something with the third model that they wouldn't do with a roadster. That'll give it some identity removed from the Boxster. If they did a 'good' 'Renn Sport' job on it, whatever that means, it would be slightly less relevant what the engine's power output is and whether it was normally aspirated or turbo charged.

 

[John H]

I can think of lots of reasons why we are unlikely to see a 4 cylinder Cayman. For starters, a 4 cylinder car would ALWAYS be considered somehow beneath a 6 cyl one, even if it had a turbo and made more power, they would struggle to establish it as the premium choice. Surely the whole point of going down the flat 4 route is that it would be a physically smaller engine, (the flat 6 is a BIG engine) and that you could therefore package a smaller car around it. The Boxster/Cayman platform has a substantial sized engine bay that would be uneconomic to re-configure, so why put a flat 4 in it (or the 911 come to that). Porsche's product planners seem fixated on only developeing the ranges upmarket (wrongly in my opinion) so the whole idea of a flat 4 fitted to any of the current platforms seems highly unlikely. However ... I have no doubt that various other engines are under R&D, whether they ever see production of not, so I would be happy to believe that a flat 4 turbo engine has perhaps been fitted in a Cayman mule chassis for Herr Piech to play with. I'm not holding my breath to see it in a production car though.

 

[Motorhead]

John, Apologies for repeating myself but in a previous post a few months ago I made this comment: It might be unpalatable to Porsche purists but a turbocharged flat-four has enormous potential. The boxer engine has a low centre of gravity, good balance (no requirement for a 2nd-order balancer shaft as in an in-line four), lighter (less metal and coolant) and turbocharger technology has moved on significantly with the introduction of variable geometry turbines and twin-scroll turbines. Porsche has significant experience in the turbocharging field too and remember also that F1 will be moving to turbocharged V6 engines in 2014 which could assist Porsche marketing people to sell a "turbo four" image. Now that Porsche is part of VAG, corporate fuel economy requirements are perhaps less critical but manufacturers are always anxious to make their engines cleaner and more economical. A clean, economical, high specific output, high torque flat-four would fit very neatly into Porsche's much vaunted strive for "efficiency". With the strained relationship between the 911 and the Cayman, a 350hp Cayman could provide an ideal platform on which to experiment without impinging upon the core 911 business. Personally, I can't see any reason why a turbocharged 4-cylinder car should be considered beneath a 6-cylinder offering other than for pub bragging rights. Whatever, as Chris has said it's unlikely that we'll be seeing a higher performance Cayman version for another 12-18 months, at which time the Porsche marketing people will have a clearer indication of whether or not their efforts at making the new car forge a new path have been successful. Jeff

 

[Motorhead]

ORIGINAL: chrisH

“Basically, the car is ready to sell,” chief test engineer Alex Ernst told us. “But there were final adjustments to the production tools. That’s why we’re here. We have to make sure that our cars offer top quality. So far, we are satisfied with the results.”

Jeff, I hope this is true and your concern over early production models tending to be problematic are unfounded. They have until March 1st to get it right when cars will start rolling off the line at Zuffenhausen. Chris

Yes Chris, it doesn't exactly fill you with confidence at this stage of the production process but it's quite common to have issues such as this up to and during production. You'll have noticed that manufacturers always have a statement somewhere in their sales blurb to the effect that they maintain the right to make specification changes without notice..! Since there's a high degree of commonality between the Cayman and Boxster chassis components, the production tools to which Ernst is referring could be anything unique to the Cayman ranging from unibody parts to plastic components or even trim. I'm sure that Porsche will be working hard both in-house and with their suppliers to ensure that it's all fixed before production commences. Jeff

 

[John H]

ORIGINAL: Motorhead Personally, I can't see any reason why a turbocharged 4-cylinder car should be considered beneath a 6-cylinder offering other than for pub bragging rights. Jeff

I quite agree, but the world isn't logical. If it was, no one in their right minds would pay twice as much for a Porsche with the engine in the wrong place, when for less they could buy one with the engine in the right place. []

 

[Buddy]

But why think of the engine size as relevant to the engine bay volume? Surely this space saving also allows for changes in the transmission and even power generation for some measure of hybridisation? A baby 918 in a 981 shell perhaps?[][][]

 

[Motorhead]

To achieve the required output (~350hp?) a 4-cylinder turbo engine probably would need to be intercooled, so the packaging could be challenging and would take up some of the freed-up space. Incidentally, Ford are targeting 350hp from a newly-developed 2.3 litre four cylinder EcoBoost engine for the next Focus RS. Apparently they've chosen a larger capacity engine to boost low speed torque and response rather than fit a bigger turbo on a smaller capacity engine which would only give top-end power gains. Rather interesting that 2/3 of 3.4 is about...2.3 litres.! Whether or not we like it, it appears that hybrids are here to stay and some of the technology being developed for the 918 will certainly be trickling down the sportscar range sooner rather than later. Jeff

 

[spyderman]

ORIGINAL: flat6 If they are going to have a 3rd Cayman model, they need to hand it over to their Renn Sport experts and do something with the third model that they wouldn't do with a roadster. That'll give it some identity removed from the Boxster. If they did a 'good' 'Renn Sport' job on it, whatever that means, it would be slightly less relevant what the engine's power output is and whether it was normally aspirated or turbo charged.

It is my opinion that Porsche should do a proper Clubsport version this time, ie: go a stage further than the Cayman R and have buckets, a harness bar and harnesses as standard. I think you could guarantee that they would sell every single one of them several times over. And I don't think the 4 cylinder turbo is at all likely in the 981 chassis. Chris.

 

[John H]

Why on earth would Porsche go to the expense of developing a turbo flat 4 for the Cayman which made 350 bhp, when for almost zero cost all they have to do is drop in the existing flat six 350 bhp engine from the base 991? The trouble here is that we think like car enthusiasts ... Porsche thinks like a business!

 

[flat6]

ORIGINAL: spyderman

ORIGINAL: flat6 What do you think is the bigger picture guys? Does the Cayman 'need' a turbo?

Does the 991 need a faster, cheaper rival...?

Exactly, if the Cayman turbo is only 'warm' at best, to keep it behind the 911, what's the point.

ORIGINAL: spyderman

ORIGINAL: flat6 If they are going to have a 3rd Cayman model, they need to hand it over to their Renn Sport experts and do something with the third model that they wouldn't do with a roadster. That'll give it some identity removed from the Boxster. If they did a 'good' 'Renn Sport' job on it, whatever that means, it would be slightly less relevant what the engine's power output is and whether it was normally aspirated or turbo charged.

It is my opinion that Porsche should do a proper Clubsport version this time, ie: go a stage further than the Cayman R and have buckets, a harness bar and harnesses as standard. I think you could guarantee that they would sell every single one of them several times over. Chris.

Indeed I'll rephrase my question slightly. "Does the Cayman need a 'green' turbo?" My view is no. Either the whole range needs a green turbo, or they will simply tune the current engine to 350hp as the same engine is already doing 350hp in the 911. There may be some nostalgic hysteria about 4 cyclinders vs 6 but putting that aside, putting a different engine in the Cayman to produce the same power as the existing 6 cylinder engine can already produce would only be serve as an lame excuse to say why the 4 cylinder 350hp Cayman does not tread on the tows of the 6 cylinder 350hp 911, despite being as fast or faster. I can't see Porsche going to all that trouble. You're more likely to get a RS or 'Clubsport' Cayman that is faster than a Carrera due to reduced weight (and perhaps using the same Carrera tune on the engine, if you're lucky) and then the differentiator is that a 991 Carrera buyer is not in the same market as a buyer for an uncompromising Cayman Clubsport or RS. Will that happen, who knows. I'm not holding my breath either. I do get the benefits of the more efficient engine, but if it is somehow going to be promoted as the premium Cayman, I think it will not be such a big hoorah to say "We've added a turbo but we removed 2 cylinders to give you the extra power you've always wanted, but not a smidgen more. We added a turbo for efficiency, not to give you significantly more power. This makes it the top Cayman (we could've given you 25 more hp on the current engine but you wouldn't want to pay us as much as if it had a turbo badge)". I just don't think the Cayman NEEDS a warm turbo model. As for the turbo coming in Frankfurt, lots of different sources posted on or after December 3rd so it probably comes from the one source in Italy that this site referes to, and all the others are repeating it. http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1080815_porsche-to-debut-4-cylinder-cayman-turbo-at-the-2013-frankfurt-auto-show

 

[flat6]

Back to the title of the thread, I risk getting lambasted for this but, Cayman is Boxster coupe. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . But that isn't a bad thing. Part of the problem is actually that Porsche charges a premium for the Cayman, setting the expectation higher, but doesn't actually add anything to justify the extra cost. Typically a convertible is priced higher than the coupe for the obvious reasons, but suffers dynamically for being heavier and having more body flex. I expect that any extra stiffness of the Cayman over the Boxster will not be telling at this level. Incidentally in 981 guise, they weigh the same. (One of the reasons I went for the Spyder over the R (despite preferring Cayman over standard Boxster) was because, given the lightweight, uncompromising design ethos of the Spyder & R, the steel roof adds extra weight and raises the centre of gravity, with no discernible enhancement to the driving dynamics because the Spyder is stiff enough anyway.) Without significantly transforming the Cayman from the Boxster with uprated 'whatever', to transfer it's significantly extra power to the road and handle the extra speed around the corners, they are essentially the same car. Instead, it has a neglible 10 extra horsepower and no mechanical enhancements over the Boxster (not that it needs any mechanical enhancements for 10 extra HP). The trouble is, we enthusiasts see so much more potential for the coupe over the convertible but Porsche is yet to split them and exploit the better body that is the coupe body shell. The average roadster driver (i'm not referring to Boxster enthusiasts on here) are no doubt happy with what the Boxster offers as it is a big step up from their SLK (sorry, just trying to create an analogy). Whereas for the Cayman, which has the potential to have no equal, not just a step up from an SLK, "Boxster coupe" sounds a little unsatisfactory even though the Boxster is a great driver's car. So really it is a Boxster coupe, but that isn't a negative assessment. It just is what it is, for now.

 

[rob.kellock]

Or it's a big genius marketing scam. Can anyone give an example of any other range of vehicles where the convertible is cheaper than the coupe? A bit like the Spyder, less is more [8|]

 

[Buddy]

As a personal preference I prefer coupes and only bought a 986S ( before the Cayman ) because there wasn't a Porsche Mid engined coupe in fact I almost went for a Lotus Esprit but couldn't stand the poor quality. The Boxster Chassis shared with the Cayman is darned good and it would not have been thought bad if the Cayman had originally been called the Boxster Coupe but marketing wanted to charge more for it! Hence the new name. Now it may be that as Porsche have recently produced the new 991, Boxster 981 and now the Cayman 981, also the Cayenne and Panamera they have a large development area with less to do than for some time. Maybe they are utilising some of this capacity to investigate the possibilities of the four and giving marketing a task in raising the acceptance level, after all when they put a six cylinder into the 911 back in the 60's the Porsche Purists decried it as "not a proper Porsche"! The 2.5 turbo flat four is rumoured to have been in design and development for some time and was said to be aimed for the 981 at one time with a bolt in pair of cylinders for the 991 as a modular build or even the Baby Boxster which never arrived. So four cylinders or six from a modular build method either as a casting or as bolt together block is not unheard of as a build method.