991.2 GTS
- Thread starter john synnuck
- Start date
Gorsh
Member
Well, I've read the Porsche description of what it does, but it's generally not received good reviews from journalists and owners (mostly on the PH forum). The feedback on RWS is generally good. The impression is that it makes the car corner 'flatter', this is on a car where the handling is already excellent. I'm guessing you like PDCC - I would be interested in hearing your opinion of it - in particular for road use where I will do 99% of driving.Lancerlot said:
Thanks
Gordon.
Anti-roll bars work by connecting one side of the suspension to the other. This reduces body roll (lean) into bends when the vehicle's weight transfers to the outside and allows more of the tyre to keep in contact with the road, improving traction and cornering.
However, the ability of each suspension corner to move independently is then restricted, so this tends to adversely affect overall ride comfort. The stiffer the bar, the flatter hard cornering will be, but the ride over bumps will be uncomfortable and the car will become less stable and more difficult to drive elsewhere. What's really needed is good stiff anti-roll bars during hard cornering and no bars at all on the bumpy straight bits of road. Anti-rolls bars in passenger cars are therefore compromised.
Most competition cars have adjustable anti-rolls bars capable of being made softer or stiffer as required. However, this normally means jacking the car up and resorting to the tool box - so not very practical for a road car!
Porsche overcomes the problem by fitting their PDDC system which continually monitors events and dynamically adjusts roll stiffness in accordance with the selected mode, terrain and vehicle status.
In Porsche's own words:-
PDCC – optional for all S models in conjunction with rear-axle steering – is an active anti-roll system that suppresses lateral body movement during cornering manoeuvres. In addition, it minimises the lateral instability of the vehicle on uneven ground.
The results are improved dynamic performance, even more neutral handling and increased ride comfort – whatever the speed.
In simple terms, the tyres and vehicle hold the road better and you can steer through corners faster and in a more relaxed manner. Which is why PDCC sets standards for driving performance, ride comfort – and driving pleasure.
So an optimised setting for every occasion - what's not to like? [8D]
Regards,
Clive
However, the ability of each suspension corner to move independently is then restricted, so this tends to adversely affect overall ride comfort. The stiffer the bar, the flatter hard cornering will be, but the ride over bumps will be uncomfortable and the car will become less stable and more difficult to drive elsewhere. What's really needed is good stiff anti-roll bars during hard cornering and no bars at all on the bumpy straight bits of road. Anti-rolls bars in passenger cars are therefore compromised.
Most competition cars have adjustable anti-rolls bars capable of being made softer or stiffer as required. However, this normally means jacking the car up and resorting to the tool box - so not very practical for a road car!
Porsche overcomes the problem by fitting their PDDC system which continually monitors events and dynamically adjusts roll stiffness in accordance with the selected mode, terrain and vehicle status.
In Porsche's own words:-
PDCC – optional for all S models in conjunction with rear-axle steering – is an active anti-roll system that suppresses lateral body movement during cornering manoeuvres. In addition, it minimises the lateral instability of the vehicle on uneven ground.
The results are improved dynamic performance, even more neutral handling and increased ride comfort – whatever the speed.
In simple terms, the tyres and vehicle hold the road better and you can steer through corners faster and in a more relaxed manner. Which is why PDCC sets standards for driving performance, ride comfort – and driving pleasure.
So an optimised setting for every occasion - what's not to like? [8D]
Regards,
Clive
Gorsh
Member
Thanks Clive for your answer, you explain what it does very well. Your tone suggests you think I don't know much about cars, I can assure you I do - I worked as a mechanic on Lotus and Alfas in my younger days. It was of course before all the OBC and electronics came into being, so a lot has changed since my day - the dynamics haven't changed though, just the way they are handled and controlled.
What I'm looking for is opinions of how PDCC feels in use from people who have it on their cars in day to day road use on all types of surfaces, or someone who has driven cars with and without PDCC (but with the RWS) to try and gauge how much difference it really makes.
You will know as well as I do that Porsche are very good at making options sound like 'must haves', and people who don't know any better then tick all the options boxes just to be sure their car has all the latest technology, and that's fine if they are happy with that - but I don't want to spend extra money for the sake of it, hence my request for real life experience rather than quotes from Porsche. It seems to me there is a lot of uncertainty about PDCC - many people say they can feel the benefit of Rear Axle Steering, but of course cars with PDCC also have RWS, so how much extra benefit is the PDCC? Road testers and many opinions of reviewers seem unsure - so they say it's of limited value and not worth the money. It's worth noting that Porsche say PDCC works in conjunction with RWS to do what it does - so again I'm wondering if the improved handling is largely down to the RWS.
While on the subject of comfort and handling, the GTS models have the Sports PASM as standard (normal PASM is a no cost option), this is 10mm lower than normal PASM, Porsche say this has shorter stiffer springs and stiffer anti-roll bars front and rear. They also say this suspension gives a surprisingly high level of comfort (note they are careful not to say it is as comfortable as normal PASM). This description kind of goes against some of what PDCC does IMO (one thing makes anti-roll stiffer all the time, the other makes it stiffer only during cornering).
Adding all this information together is complicated and confusing to say the least - how is one supposed to know what options to choose for the best blend of comfort and handling on our bumpy UK roads? I feel Porsche should give customers more guidance what options are best in different scenarios - as some will want the best handling at the expense of some comfort, others will want the best comfort they can get, and the rest will want a blend of both. Road testing all the different permutations is practically impossible.
It should also be remembered that the GTS in it's standard setup with no options will be a damned good car - all these options are no more than fine tuning, and cleverly marketed to get buyers to add many thousands of pounds to the cost of their car.
Something to discuss perhaps? All opinions welcome, agree with me or shoot me down!
Thanks in advance
Gordon.
What I'm looking for is opinions of how PDCC feels in use from people who have it on their cars in day to day road use on all types of surfaces, or someone who has driven cars with and without PDCC (but with the RWS) to try and gauge how much difference it really makes.
You will know as well as I do that Porsche are very good at making options sound like 'must haves', and people who don't know any better then tick all the options boxes just to be sure their car has all the latest technology, and that's fine if they are happy with that - but I don't want to spend extra money for the sake of it, hence my request for real life experience rather than quotes from Porsche. It seems to me there is a lot of uncertainty about PDCC - many people say they can feel the benefit of Rear Axle Steering, but of course cars with PDCC also have RWS, so how much extra benefit is the PDCC? Road testers and many opinions of reviewers seem unsure - so they say it's of limited value and not worth the money. It's worth noting that Porsche say PDCC works in conjunction with RWS to do what it does - so again I'm wondering if the improved handling is largely down to the RWS.
While on the subject of comfort and handling, the GTS models have the Sports PASM as standard (normal PASM is a no cost option), this is 10mm lower than normal PASM, Porsche say this has shorter stiffer springs and stiffer anti-roll bars front and rear. They also say this suspension gives a surprisingly high level of comfort (note they are careful not to say it is as comfortable as normal PASM). This description kind of goes against some of what PDCC does IMO (one thing makes anti-roll stiffer all the time, the other makes it stiffer only during cornering).
Adding all this information together is complicated and confusing to say the least - how is one supposed to know what options to choose for the best blend of comfort and handling on our bumpy UK roads? I feel Porsche should give customers more guidance what options are best in different scenarios - as some will want the best handling at the expense of some comfort, others will want the best comfort they can get, and the rest will want a blend of both. Road testing all the different permutations is practically impossible.
It should also be remembered that the GTS in it's standard setup with no options will be a damned good car - all these options are no more than fine tuning, and cleverly marketed to get buyers to add many thousands of pounds to the cost of their car.
Something to discuss perhaps? All opinions welcome, agree with me or shoot me down!
Thanks in advance
Gordon.
Told today, first cars anticipated being built March with April delivery.
The Targa is very tempting, couldn't believe how the 2S drove, although it took me half a day to gel with it, and would not have been interested in one at all if that was my total test drive.
But on the afternoon, what a difference, good dry clear roads and heaps of fun, OK, not as good in the noise department but overall really impressed.
We will just have to wait and see now.
The Targa is very tempting, couldn't believe how the 2S drove, although it took me half a day to gel with it, and would not have been interested in one at all if that was my total test drive.
But on the afternoon, what a difference, good dry clear roads and heaps of fun, OK, not as good in the noise department but overall really impressed.
We will just have to wait and see now.
I was trying to be helpful and as we are not acquainted, I do not know your background. You asked me for an opinion and I gave it in good faith. If it is unhelpful to you, maybe it will be of use to others.
RWS improves turn-in and PDDC improves handling/road-holding, so 2 different systems combining to provide overall improvement. I'm rather less circumspect than you about Porsche's technical developments, but it does comes as standard in Porsche's flagship models. Why have either if you think they are gimmicky? You will save loads of money and still have a good car.
Alternatively, try both and judge for yourself, since you are clearly ambivalent about this system from what you are reading?
Regards,
Clive
RWS improves turn-in and PDDC improves handling/road-holding, so 2 different systems combining to provide overall improvement. I'm rather less circumspect than you about Porsche's technical developments, but it does comes as standard in Porsche's flagship models. Why have either if you think they are gimmicky? You will save loads of money and still have a good car.
Alternatively, try both and judge for yourself, since you are clearly ambivalent about this system from what you are reading?
Regards,
Clive
Gorsh
Member
Sorry Clive, I didn't mean to come across as rude - you are correct, I could have been a complete novice with performance cars - you weren't to know.Lancerlot said:
You don't say if you have owned a 911 with either just RWS or both of these systems fitted, I may be wrong but you just seem to quote what Porsche say about them, and that is not the information I'm seeking. I want to hear opinions based on personal experience.
Thanks for your input.
Gordon.
Hi Gordon,
No offence taken. I did quote verbatum what Porsche have to say, but prefaced it with my own take on the subject.
I have experience in driving cars both with and without these features and if I were specing a car now, I would opt to have both. ?? However, if there were budget constraints, I think I would probably chose PDCC over RWS. ??
Regards,
Clive
No offence taken. I did quote verbatum what Porsche have to say, but prefaced it with my own take on the subject.
I have experience in driving cars both with and without these features and if I were specing a car now, I would opt to have both. ?? However, if there were budget constraints, I think I would probably chose PDCC over RWS. ??
Regards,
Clive
Ian991
New member
I have had two 991 GTS, one with -20mm and PDCC, and one with -10mm and PDCC (pretty sure it was Adrian's from Tewksbury - thanks for looking after it so well before I had it)
The current car with -10mm I see as a great everyday ride, "spirited" driving is good and at the same time soaking up the speed bumps. For the feeling of a go cart I still feel that I preferred the sports PASM -20mm (also preferring the visual stance of the car) but the problem was the constant grounding on large speed bumps, so for a new car I would specify the front lift - although the new design seems to have a throw away black plastic front On the front bumper - but it would still wind me up grounding it!
I would specify PDCC again if I had another, but probably only because I would want to be sure of the same experience again. There are loads of cars out there without it, they can't all be wrong can they ?
BUT,
If you are questioning it, and can afford it, then spec it, the last thing you want is to get is to get your new car and wonder what if ...... Besides you'll probably shift it easier in the second hand market with it than without it.
Ian
The current car with -10mm I see as a great everyday ride, "spirited" driving is good and at the same time soaking up the speed bumps. For the feeling of a go cart I still feel that I preferred the sports PASM -20mm (also preferring the visual stance of the car) but the problem was the constant grounding on large speed bumps, so for a new car I would specify the front lift - although the new design seems to have a throw away black plastic front On the front bumper - but it would still wind me up grounding it!
I would specify PDCC again if I had another, but probably only because I would want to be sure of the same experience again. There are loads of cars out there without it, they can't all be wrong can they ?
BUT,
If you are questioning it, and can afford it, then spec it, the last thing you want is to get is to get your new car and wonder what if ...... Besides you'll probably shift it easier in the second hand market with it than without it.
Ian
The 991 is a beautifully engineered vehicle that works well in any event. These additional features provide only subtle improvements at low speed, but are more significant at higher speeds. The cost/benefit decision really depends upon your driving perspective. [Ian991 said:
]Regards,
Clive
Gorsh
Member
Thanks for your input everyone. I'm going to try and test drive a car with and without PDCC, the RWS I'm happy to go for as most new 991.2 cars seem to have it and it get good reviews. I'd rather have the normal PASM too simply for increased comfort at everyday road speeds, the car will handle very well anyway so kind of pointless chasing very small improvements for mostly road driving. I'm going to have to be selective with the options on a 4GTS as going for all the things makes the car price over £120k (arguably better getting a nearly new Turbo at that money) which I feel is too expensive and will suffer huge depreciation to begin with, where I think a carefully optioned 2GTS at £110k will be a better buy.
What do you all think of the 2GTS vs 4GTS pros and cons?
Gordon.
What do you all think of the 2GTS vs 4GTS pros and cons?
Gordon.
Gorsh
Member
Hi Steve
Wow - you have a comprehensive spec there - it will be a fabulous car.
Unfortunately I'm on a smaller budget so have to be careful to choose only the most worthwhile options. I also like the look of the wide body, when I was considering a S it had to be the 4S.
Do you happen to know what suspension/chassis options were on the 2S you enjoyed? It was obviously a good setup to feel so good to you, if I haven't gone over budget with options I could go for the 4GTS, but if the 2GTS is that good then it gives me more flexibility on options - decisions....decisions..!
Thanks for your helpful reply.
Gordon.
Wow - you have a comprehensive spec there - it will be a fabulous car.
Unfortunately I'm on a smaller budget so have to be careful to choose only the most worthwhile options. I also like the look of the wide body, when I was considering a S it had to be the 4S.
Do you happen to know what suspension/chassis options were on the 2S you enjoyed? It was obviously a good setup to feel so good to you, if I haven't gone over budget with options I could go for the 4GTS, but if the 2GTS is that good then it gives me more flexibility on options - decisions....decisions..!
Thanks for your helpful reply.
Gordon.
john synnuck
New member
Well, I've ordered a Coupe 4GTS, delivery May. And I have included rear wheel steer in the spec!
Updated specification
Targa 4 GTS
N0 Agate Grey Metallic
1V Convertible Top Black
GQ Alcantara® Package GTS Carmine Red in conjunction with GTS interior package
XEY LED main headlights in black including Porsche DynamicLight System Plus
(PDLS+)
638 ParkAssist (front and rear) with reversing camera
425 Rear Wiper
748 Electrically folding exterior mirrors
XAT SportDesign package
XYB Fuel filler cap with Aluminium look finish
250 Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK)
658 Power steering Plus
352 Porsche Dynamic Chassis Control (PDCC)
470 Rear-axle steering
450 Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB)
449 20-inch 911 Turbo S wheels
088 GTS interior package
456 Adaptive cruise control including Porsche Active Safe (PAS)
631 Speed limit display
P13 Automatically dimming mirrors with integrated rain sensor
P07 Adaptive Sports seats Plus (18-way, electric)
342 Seat heating
583 Smoking package
581 Passenger footwell storage net
509 Fire extinguisher
XXD Door sill guards in carbon, illuminated
9VL BOSE® Surround Sound-System
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