993 TT Dilemma: Inner door rust

[dub00]

I recently bought a low mileage, low owner, late built 993 Turbo, in generally very good order. When it was delivered last week it was discovered that the driver's door is slightly blown out at the bottom due to rust inside. We were not permitted to do a deep inspection at my usual guy's garage prior to purchase (we did an on-site inspection as best as possible but it was my mechanic, not my body guy who did this, as he had to travel a distance to get there), so the door was only discovered, on inspection, and reported back, the actual day of delivery.

My guys have told me that the rust is not easy to treat in that area, as they have seen this issue a couple of times in the last year or so on 993s, and that a new door would ultimately be the best way to treat the problem so we can be sure it never returns. However it looks like the vendor's body shop will try to say they can treat the problem without replacement of the door.

I paid very good money for this car, from a well known vendor (who I shall forgo mentioning in order to be discreet), on the proviso it would be a very sorted car. It's a very nice car, but arrived with a range of small issues (for example, centre console lights not working, head light washer jets not working, clutch pipe "P" clip split - approx. £1000 of work for all the points mentioned besides just these). I was disappointed at the response, "its a 20 year old car and these are minor things", as conversely, I would have thought well sure, they are minor, so why overlook them on a top price car from a top vendor if they are so easy to sort. I might have been willing to overlook this, reluctantly, and get it sorted out myself, and was just absorbing the news when the door rust came to light the day after.

I really could do with some opinions here as I am rather caught in the middle and its not easy for me to make an informed decision as to what is reasonable, on balance, to expect given my situation?

 

[Gordon Attar]

All of the above should have been picked and rectified except maybe the exception is the rusty door by any self respecting Porsche 993 specialist as you generally don't run your hands along the bottom of the door and you don't open the doors when on the ramp, though it is a specific 964 and 993 issur. The headlamp washer pump is rather expensive about £240 +v but easy to do, so that's a definate "trying" to get away with it item.

Anyway I diverse , their warranty should cover these items. Alternatively the sale of goods act covers this so they need to rectify whatever the case. Regarding the door you have to give them the chance to rectify ask for photos of the work and a one year warranty.

 

[dub00]

Thanks so much Gordon. I didn't want to weigh down my OP with the full list of minor faults but your one comment re. 'trying to get away with it' is the key observation I was testing here on PCGB. I haven't called them out on the warranty or the Sale Of Goods Act as I am endeavouring to keep the relationship sweet for the long term by pursuing a mutual compromise. Though one has to ask if you are flatly correct, and that these things should be sorted out, or whether to some extent, at least, the response "it is a 20 year old car", is applicable. It may be a bit of a half way house, or am I being too generous after paying just over 150k ..

 

[Graham-S]

I would have expected all of those items to have been picked up and taken care of by the garage unless they told you before hand and dropped the price. I wouldn't be happy with all those issues.
The door is a different matter. You would have thought they would have check the car from top to bottom before advertising it so may have known about it?
You have a picture of the door rust area? My 993 is 20 years old and no signs of rust anywhere (touch wood!)
I would list the items you have said and see what they say. As Gordon says should be covered by warranty or sale of good act. Good Luck

 

[dub00]

Their initial response was not constructive, and I was a bit gobsmacked. I listed the minor faults, all 18 of them, to which I receive: "These points are tiny things and you have to remember this is 20 year old car - not a brand new one. If you wanted a brand new car you would have bought a 991". I was pretty offended but I prefer not to antagonise. Instead I was nothing but calm and conciliatory even though I was already quite irritated.

After my body shop chap fed back about the door the next day and some 'at best average paintwork' (the nose has been repainted for stone chips), I received: "If you want a 100 point restored car you would be paying around £250K just for the work by Porsche Classic in Germany", and a couple of other choice comments I shall not repeat.

I was not informed of any of these things at any stage. I had to find out for myself, at cost, and could only do so upon delivery, due to restrictions mentioned in the OP. I do not have any illustration of the extent of inner door rust because we haven't got to that stage. I had hoped they would tell my guys (highly competent agents for Official Porsche Centres) to open it up and forward them photos so we can see what's in there. But alas no.

The 2 responses I have here thus far have emboldened me and I welcome any additional input.

 

[Graham-S]

I wouldn't be impressed with their response about a 20 year old car. If it was an old ford or something then yes but not on anyting over 10k+ I would say they knew about these faults. What warranty do you have?
Front bumper painted isn't unusual but
"at best average paintwork" on the rest for a £150k + I would have hoped for great or exceptional condition
What else are they hiding?

 

[dub00]

I shall not say who sold me the car, but if I did I'm sure you'd be taken aback; they are very high profile and sell exceptional models. So with my guys telling me that, other than what's been said here, the car is actually very nice, just that it has "not been treated with the respect it deserves recently considering what wonderful cars these are", and that this is at best "sloppy", I suspect, god I hope, there is nothing else hidden. For instance, I was sent a summary of the mileage and servicing, with copies of the stamps etc., which really leaves no room for anything remiss on that aspect. The history looks tight.

I do not know the warranty, I just know we discussed one year, and they were always clear it was going straight to my guys for inspection, which it has, on a truck, without my hand so much as touching it, so I fully assumed it would be well sorted or this was always going to happen. They always assured me it would be great. These guys are so top notch that it didn't occur to me to question this. That's why I went to them. They have a reputation to uphold so I am really surprised at the responses thus far.

 

[terry993]

Hi

I have read all the various posts and agree with with most of the points. At 150k (what is the mileage I wonder) I think that regardless of age I would expect a fully functing car. I did not like the sellers comments that you posted about buy a 991 I understand reluctance in naming the seller however once the issue is sorted or goes legal I feel you owe it to the members to let them know who they are. They could always post a response in their defence.

I have had my 993 turbo since 2001 and only had one problem when I purchased from OPC which was swiftly dealt with at no cost and with a smile and lots of apologies. I continue to use them for service and sales

One lesson from this very sorry affair is that ALWAYS get a full independent survey carried out prior to purchase.

Certainly most if not all should have spotted by the seller and put right BEFORE offering for sale.

I wish you all the best and hope to hear about a happy outcome

 

[dub00]

You have a point there, I guess to some extent I do have a responsibility to say who I am dealing with. However it is best to see how this turns out and then I think I shall pass on the link to the vendor for this thread and see how they wish to respond, if at all. Incidentally the car has mid 30's k miles, all backed up by regular services. I suppose what is upsetting is that you wait decades to get such a car and from the outset there is a bitter taste, which already somewhat ruins the whole experience. I had really hoped to build a life long relationship with these guys; I place importance in such things (perhaps I still can, here's hoping). In this respect alone I'd half like to just get shot and start afresh. That said, loving these machines is partly about how you are custodian, and perhaps abandoning the old girl is irresponsible in itself, so maybe if I do have to throw more money at it, I'll get her just right for the next 20 years. Such different views one can have depending upon frame of mind.

Upon my first meeting I did ask for a pre-purchase inspection but they were reluctant to allow the car off premises to my guys some miles away and simply told me they had a reputation in the game and that some trust would be best placed in them. I am relatively inexperienced and thought to myself, gosh, I don't wish to come off brash here so maybe they are right, though I was not completely comfortable, so I made it very clear we would see what we could prior to purchase with a good look over up on the ramp and then do our preferred inspection immediately upon delivery, which we did. Then this.

You gents have strengthened my hand. I will speak to them today for the first time in a few days and say that frankly, all things considered, you need to get most of this sorted, and to a high level. Not just intimating that you are prepared to look at the door, as they are currently saying after some pushing.

Really appreciate the feedback thus far.

 

[Gordon Attar]

I would highly recommend the following that you send them an email listing all the points that you are not happy with. Remind them that the car was trailered directly to the specialist as agreed for inspection and your surprise at the basic faults found. Say that you expect them to collect the car and make good the faults within 2 weeks and to return the car to your specialist for checking. If at any stage they send a negative response just respond with a polite one line response asking for your money back so they get the message. You don't need a relationship with them as they are not what you think they are.
Don't feel sorry for them they will have at least a £20k mark up on the car.

FYI I've heard enough horror stories of cars 2 or 3 times the value of your car that have accident damage, rust buckets, poorly maintained cars with big service gaps and stuff I wouldn't touch with a bargepole sold by OPC'S, high end dealers and non Porsche specialists.

Ps I would expect any 30k mile 993 to have had a nose repaint but there shouldn't be any evidence of it in a £10k car.

 

[dub00]

I have some very useful feedback, and yes Gordon does appear very authoritative. To be frank I was always of this view, but I wanted to farm out the current situation to a wider audience just to be more sure that my expectancies are reasonable. Turns out I have probably been too reasonable thus far. I think the will is there from these guys to sort the problem, to some degree at least, but its a shame I feel I have to fight for it instead of the proverbial 'service with a smile'. I am building up my dutch to speak to them very shortly.

MoC2S - I hate to be coy but I really do think it prudent not to name and shame as I haven't given them proper space to respond in full. I wanted some views here so I can go in armed LOL. I hope that I can shortly announce a wonderful conclusion, misunderstanding swept away and car great again...

 

[Gordon Attar]

Oops if you want to be kind give then the option of your Porsche Specialist being the repairer at their cost.

Look up the suppliers name and add complaints/bad service/ poor customer service to the name and get past page 1/2 which will be links and adverts to themselves. Big flashy showrooms and big prices doesn't necessarily mean good cars or service.

I would suspect supplier is HE×€£*& in who i suspect droped "modern" from their title due to list of complaints showing up on google.

If it HE€£_% #AY then forget it you've no chance, Peter Morgan refused to inspect cars there, as their was no point as nothing was ever repaired beforehand or even after an inspection.

 

[dub00]

Hi chaps. I will still refrain from divulging names as it is a 'work in progress', but I am happy to share with you via private message if you wish.

I had a productive conversation with the vendor today and they have taken on some additional responsibility for the minor faults list and they have agreed to let my guys inspect the inside of the door so we all know exactly what is needed to get everything properly sorted out here. I feel a sense of relief and will update as and when things progress, or otherwise!

Thanks so much

 

[terry993]

Hi

looks like things may be progressing, you will need to get all resolved and agreed (in writing preferably) and actioned within a short time frame as the longer it goes on the more your position is weakend.

If you would please private me the name and I promise that I will not put it out anywhere on the web unless it is made public.
Terry

 

[T911UK]

I think Gordon has given a pretty big clue of who it is!

Think new one pound coin shape and go from there

Not the first time I have read this sort of thing with them, in fact I had to check the date on the posts because this is so familar.

20K, more like 40K Gordon!

 

[jmaddox]

I am surprised at the rust in the door. I had rust shards coming from the drain holes in my drivers door and on inspection I discovered it was very rusty metal brackets holding the glass to the lowering mechanism. They had virtually disintegrated and both doors cost about £120 in parts but several hours for me to fit.

Inside the doors were as new.

 

[dub00]

Hello. This is the third car in a collection I have wanted to build more than anything since I was knee high and I am hugely fortunate, through only my own hard work and nobody elses, that I am in this position. This car is possibly the one I am learning most through as I did more homework with the first two and they are excellent, 10/10'ers. This one may be a 7.5 or 8 presently, at a rough guess. It will be excellent when we have finished and it would not have been my most economical experience but you live and learn and spending more than you need to is certainly a fast and permanent way of consuming knowledge!!

I will not allow anyone to do any work I feel is not just about the best, belt and braces, approach we can possibly take, because that's how I like to do things. If the vendor cannot be compelled to take this approach then we shall have too, but my guys are all over this now as a kind of referee, quality control position. Presently it looks rather more positive than it did at the start f the week, thank goodness.

I will email you the vendor name terry993, but T911UK, with the utmost respect to you guys I shall not comment on any comments above as to whether it is or is not anyone alluded too. I would rather we do not play this game. At this point it is insignificant. However, rest assured that when the jury is in I will provide you all with a full, frank and balanced account of all the actors involved.

Thank you

 

[T911UK]

Fair enough, I hope you get it sorted to a standard you are happy with (even though you should have had that level before you took the car away)

 

[dub00]

Indeed I should have.
Thanks for your understanding, just want to remain focused on the job at hand you know. Only after we are done can we begin the inquisition!

 

[dub00]

I am surprised at the rust in the door. I had rust shards coming from the drain holes in my drivers door and on inspection I discovered it was very rusty metal brackets holding the glass to the lowering mechanism. They had virtually disintegrated and both doors cost about £120 in parts but several hours for me to fit.

Inside the doors were as new.

My guys were straight up with me and did say from the outset that this is a problem they are beginning to see more often over the last couple years with 993s. Seems that moisture can become trapped in these doors if it manages to enter, from my basic understanding. I think Gordon mentioned above that it is also something seen in the 964.