996 Engine Failure

[Guest]

I have 1998 C2 996 that has covered only 46k miles and has a full dealer service history. After taking it to my dealer for a major service I noticed oil in the expansion tank.

The dealer took the car back and said they had traced it to a faulty Oil Separator. They replaced the item, put a detergent in the coolant and told me to drive it for a few hundred miles. They then were planning to take the car back and change the coolant.

About 1000miles later the car blew a coolant hose because of the volume of emulsified oil in the cooling system. Clearly the dealer had not solved the problem. The dealer has now stripped the engine and is claiming that it needs replaced (at a £13k cost!). The cause, apparantly is a crack in the cylinder liner - I find this hard to believe and would therefore like to hear from anyone that can point me in the right direction wrt porous blocks, or similar experiences.

thanks

Craig

 

[plhorner]

Craig,
We were having this discussion at work yesterday, a lot of dealers seem too eagre to replace engines that could be easily repaired. Most don't have the expertise to deal with such re-builds and play the un-ecnomic repair card!! Might be worth getting a second opinion from a reputable specialist.
I would imagine if you've had coolant and oil mixing, the bearings will be damaged and the pistons, rings and liners will have 'suffered'. A good crank re-grind with new pistons, rods and either liners or overbore should sort that one out.
Cracked liner at 48k miles, sounds like the original parts were not up to standard to me!! I doubt it would be due to block porousity, that would be something that would have reared its head from new I would have thiught.

Good luck,

 

[vic cohen]

I dont actually own a 996, but be assured there was a problem with some 996 engines from new,most were dealt with early on ,some could have slipped through...........truly do nt know precise details, must be worth pursuing through main agency or Reading.

 

[Guest]

Very sorry to hear whats happened. Try posting on Rennlist.com and doing a search. Sometimes you get people giving you original Porsche recall document sheet numbers to quote to dealers which can help your case. I cant believe a car with so little milage has had such a big problem!

Best of luck with getting it solved!

 

[tim court]

Worrying.....

The only cracked liner I have ever heard of was PK Sports RSR at Le Mans a couple of years ago. Even if it is a different block/engine they said it was very unusual for a Porsche to suffer this type of fault.

 

[uktrucks]

A good start point might be to determine what caused the liner to crack. Engage a proffessional motor engineer to examine all of the components, with a view to determine cause & effect. i.e. sequence of events. It overheated & then cracked a liner, or the liner cracked due to premature material failure which then lead to overheating oil in water etc.

You then have either grounds for discussion with Porsche on fitness for purpose or latent defect or not. If so it provides leverage for manufacturer and supplying dealer goodwil gesture [less betterment ] If not then you are then free to pursue the market for least cost of repair/second hand engine or whatever.

If you leave it up to the dealer, it is in his interest to supply you goods or services for as much as they can, it is the business they are in after all.

Get it inspected sooner rather than later.

Allan

 

[GreigM]

Unfortunately it's not just 996 owners either - there have been a number of Boxster engine failures (identical engine to 996, just different capacity). I was one of the lucky who had their engine replaced under warranty, but was told that if I was even 1 day out of warranty then I would have been given a bill for £12K, which is a bit worrying to say the least.

 

[Guest]

Andrew, I read the article in the Post too with much interest as I am one of the unhappy number. Last November my (wife's) 1998 996 C2 Cab, with 40,000 miles on the clock, two sensible owners and a full OPC service history, needed a new engine after a crank case cracked. I spoke to the chief engineer at my OPC in Chiswick who said he had never seen anything like it before and had no idea how it could have happened. I also spoke to a senior technician at Reading who told me he knew of two previous crank cases cracking, but Chiswick seemed wholly uninterested in reporting it to Germany and asked me for £9,500 for the new engine and the necessary 40 hours' labour.

After some valuable advice and moral support from club members through this forum, and after an almighty row with the OPC about the purpose of a warranty (ie it is an owner's insurance policy against repair costs, not a deciding factor in who is responsible for catastrophic engine failure) we settled at £3,200, which they told me was the "at cost" engine and free labour.

I made some legal enquiries about the Sale of Goods Act and "fit for purpose" and the conclusion seemed to be I could claim against Porsche Finance as technically they had sold me the car, but not against the OPC or the manufacturer.

At the time I let my heart rule my head and agreed to the £3,200 so I could get the car back on the road and maintain a reasonable relationship with the OPC, but I am beginning to realise I have 20-20 hindsight which is a wonderful thing.

Does the 996 Register have an idea of how many members have lost an engine, I wonder?

 

[Guest]

Higgy - so was your car under warranty at the time?

 

[Rotorhead]

Personally, I suspect that Boxster/996 engine failures are pretty rare.

There may have been some issues with early engines, but later failures wil probably be below the industry average for high performance cars. Most Porsches are used as they were intended, including commuting, touring, track days etc, with no ill effect. And, not all owners are mechanically sympathetic - some never even check their oil levels.

I'm not saying that there aren't any issues, but with the emergence of these forums, bad experiences can be blown out of proportion, leading to mis-information and scaremongering.

 

[Richard_Hamilton]

If you are faced with a failure out of warranty wouldn't it be more sensible to get the engine rebuilt? I know an OPC would want to sell you a replacement engine, but independents would surely be able to rebuild - all the parts are available.

 

[Guest]

Andrew

I was out of warranty. I had decided not to renew and to put the equivalant £1,000 aside in the bank for repairs. I had thought hard about this and had decided that a 4-year old £85,000 piece of machinery was highly unlikely to incur anywhere near this sum in repairs. (There's my 20-20 hindsight again!)

As I say, I find the warranty issue irrelevant. A warranty is purely an insurance policy for the owner against potential costs. For an OPC to treat it as some sort of licence to own the vehicle is nonsensical. When my £900 fridge broke down after 15 months, 3 months out of warranty, the shop replaced it immediately as £900 fridges are supposed to last longer than 12 months.

As for Oliver's message, I can assure you that my case contains no misinformation: a well-cared for engine broke for a reason that not even Porsche could fathom. That's not intended to be scaremongering, and indeed our next purchase will probably be another 911. But I find it pretty scary!

And I wish Richard Hamilton had been around at the time. I might well have followed his advice. I shall certainly remember it for next time (heaven forbid).

Regards
Higgy

 

[Mark_Bennett]

I've often wondered how the Sale of Goods Act (1979) relates to 2 year warrantys...

http://www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/topics1/facts/salegoodsact.htm

There is still a requirement for the item bought to be "fit for purpose".

 

[peterfrost]

Hi,
This is annoying because I don't think they would have published that letter if the 996 was a current model.
I think it was just to balance the annoyance people felt when the editor seemed to suggest frequent oil changes would help!
Getting back to what is and what is'nt.
The letter was ill informed.
There is an issue with reduced/regulated oil pressures during high g cornering for std cars(not turbo/GT2/3)
But I've yet to hear of anyone in the world has to date suffered a failure due to this.
You'll struggle to do it on the road anyway.
So I'd say don't worry.
My extended warrantee for year 3 is quoted as £725 unlimited mileage and that a porsche run,so doesn't that reflect the risk.A mondeo would £350 I'd guess

 

[NicD]

I have asked the PP editor about the letter re 996 failures in the October PP but seems nothing more than publishing what a member wrote. I have written a small piece in the next issue to add a little about we are doing in this area. I was very surprised to read the "information" in this letter and followed the link to the 911uk.com forum. Needless to say, I am completely unconvinced that there is a "designed in" oil starvation problem. Think of all the track days these cars do. It is a shame when mis-information obscures genuine problems and the attempts to sort them.

There are of course sporadic (but major when they occur) problems with Boxster and 996 as mentioned above. So far as I know, the ONLY wider spread problem is the RMS.

Porsche are becoming more responsive to assisting with these problems though there is still some way to go.

Btw, I noted the letter in Sunday Times where an Audi TT owner had an expensive cam belt failure at 70k miles - the belt is changed in the 80k service. Audi would not offer any compensation at all

 

[Guest]

I started the thread in the 911uk.com forum after my car failed at 30k. I have to say that the issues with oil starvation is not really the issue for most people but 996 engines do fail.
I set up a database and to date have collected about 40 genuine cases of catastrophic engine failures from owners that have driven the car sensibly and had then serviced at OPC for the duration of the cars life.
The main issue is to do with the lack of help offered by the OPC and PGB and the level of misdirection and misinformation given by all of them.
I am sorry but when a car costing 80K fails due to no fault of the owner then the responsiblity lies solely(if not for the great %) with the manufactuer. When you dont get the level of service that you expect then there will be dissatisfied customers.
Its now been 4 months since my car failed. PGB customer service has been totally useless and actually managed to send me a letter to say that Porsches will fail at 5years even with a low mileage. I have now managed to get through to the legal department in Germany and they have untill the close of buisnesss this Friday to give me an answer. If they dont then my solicitors have already got the material to issue a summons.
With thanks to all those concerned we have, so far, raised in the region of 500k towards the legal battle.
Wish us luck, it will be for the good of all of us here. Those that have had failures and those of us who so far have been lucky

 

[Guest]

Mahen

Thanks for the input and please keep us posted. IMO consumer legislation in this country is yet to be fully tested through the courts but I feel such action will be one answer to the catastrophic engine failures that are happening on a too regular basis with our chosen marque.

As a matter of interest I asked what would happen if an engine blew outside warranty with a Japanese car. The response (the cynic says they would say that anyway) was the company would want the engine back to find out what caused the problem to ensure it was a 'one off' and would likely be supportive. I suspect Porsche would not have room to store their 'one off's' let alone wish to identify the numbers involved.

All power to Nic and his work with RMS failures - I think we know what will follow []

 

[Guest]

Mahen

Please feel free to add me to your database.
And best of luck with your legal action.

Higgy

 

[steve lyden brown]

It is with despair that I read all the emails re 996/Boxster engine failures. Whilst I am the first to admit that I only occassionally access the forum ( it makes for very dull reading ! ), the overriding impression I get is that that 996/Boxster owners who suffer this problem have met with no favourable response from OPC's, Porsche Cars GB or our club- am I right in thinking that ?

I have also been given to believe that the situation is quite different in the USA, where owners have received more help. One of the best ways forward in dealing with this problem is to group together, yet when I as a lawyer gave my phone number to a member who asked for it with a view to dealing with this major issue, he never rang me ! So much for getting started on this problem ! As it happens, I, after many years ownership/membership of Porsches and the Club, am getting sick to death with everything that is Porsche ( I plan to sell my 996 and buy a DB9), and the constant b----y wingeing of owners who wuss out in dealing with this problem in a mature and sensible manner, yet f--t around like headless b---y chickens has done much to disenchant me !

I wish you the best of luck in dealing with problem, you are certainly going to need it !! If, in the meantime, anyone who wishes to get off their a--e and start cracking on and sort it out,
would like to add me to their mailing list ( I am not going to renew my membership, which is due now ), then I will certainly offer what help I can, or at least until I get shot of my b----y 996 (which hasn't had an engine failure !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! )
Steve Lyden-Brown. Emails to Marlin@spugs.fsnet.co.uk.

 

[NicD]

Mahen,

this is a great effort. Sadly, the number of cases you mention is higher than I would have expected.

I am about to send out the 996 RMS survey and this also covers major engine failures, so I will see what the results are.

Which entity will you cite in the legal action and how long do you anticipate it to take?