996 Engine Failure

[Guest]

Steve

I appreciate your frustration, having followed your previous posts to this forum (you're a lawyer, aren't you?). Indeed, it was some of your advice, along with that of other members, that helped me negotiate my £9,500 bill down to a third last year. Don't give up on us. It is just that when your car blows up and the "Official" Porsche person tells you you are as f***ed as the car, you tend to take it on trust. It is only later that you find out there are dozens in the same boat and that what you are being told is crap.

Regards

Higgy
Whingeing, farting bloody chicken wuss.

 

[jac in a box]

Right folks I'm going to add my 2p's worth as a Boxster S owner who's recently suffered a major engine failure (14k miles, full OPC history with engine replaced under warranty)

You'll have to forgive me if some of the technical expressions are not quite correct - a girl on a steep learning curve!

My engine failed, without warning and without being driven aggresively; the cause was subsequently discovered to be 3 split liners on one side of the engine....with no good reason for it occuring.
In the space of 5 weeks or so, I have read reports of at least 5 996/986 engines failing on other Porsche forums...aux drive shaft bearing failure, liners moving and my "split liners"

I have no idea what %age of the total Porsche owners belong to a marque related forum, I'd hazard a guess at not too many. I'd suggest that 5 "forum" reported engine failures in a short period of time represents a high failure rate if extrapolated to account for the non forum paticipating Porsche owners.
Two days ago my OPC disclosed that they had one Boxster and one 996 in their workshops awaiting engine replacement.
By way of comparison (poor I know) I only recall 2 engine failures reported on an Audi forum in two years.
Rightly or wrongly, I can only surmise that the attrition rate on these Porsche engines is very high.

While I read elsewhere that the RMS issue is being actively pursued by the PCGB (well done) I cannot (selfishly perhaps) help but think that the engine failure rate is perhaps more important?
My understanding of the RMS issue is that it may cause a clutch failure...neither the seal or the clutch failing will result in an expensive engine replacement. In monetry terms RMS / clutch replacement will be about £1.6k versus engine replacement at around £12k upwards.

Of course, I'll willingly be corrected if I have got the "wrong end of the stick" regarding the content of my post!

Just feel that my confidence is slightly battered regarding the future longevity of the replacement engine.
I count myself fortunate in being covered by the Porsche warranty scheme...having one engine failure is incentive enough to dig into my purse and cough up the £725 renewal cost every year!

Jackie

 

[Guest]

jac in a box is right.

the percentage of porsche owners that contribute to forums must be very low. so the number of instances of total engine failure is likely to be higher than any of us would want to believe.

what i don't understand is why porsche is not desperately trying to placate aggrieved owners by repairing their cars as if under warranty - they must appreciate the damage that this could do to the marques reputation - the motoring press would have a field day!

many other manufacturers would have already stripped the failed engines down and found the cause, or causes, of the problem.

the lack of response from porsche, porsche GB and the OPC's has shocked me. does anyone know if our club has got involved at all?

 

[jac in a box]

n4das, good luck!

Have I read your post correctly? You have raised £500k to support legal costs? If correct what an excellent achievement...I do hope you will keep us posted on the progress.

NicD, I note you will be conducting a survey amongst 996 owners on the RMS issue and engine failure, has a similar survey been carried out for Boxster owners? I'd be interested to hear the results, are you still collecting info'?

Jackie x

 

[NicD]

Jacquelyn ,

I conducted a survey of Boxster owners earlier in the year, were you not included? drop me an email to system@porscheclubgb.com

The results were, almost 25% of the 50% of owners who replied had experienced RMS failure. It is not limited to any particular year or model variant. Many were fixed under warranty and some owners, I suspect are not aware.

This is why the Club has been in strong talks with Porsche Cars for some time.

 

[NicD]

Jac and Andrew,

we in the Club know of only a few failures, but when I made the Boxster RMS presentation to Porsche Cars, I also devoted some time to engine failures. I have asked owners to contact me and some have, i also mention this point on the 996 RMS survey going out shortly

You mention 5 failures from Forums, but over what period did they occur? Remember, there are many thousands of 996 and 986 since 1997 out there, BUT for the owner. any failure is one too many.

For me, its important to take out the extended warranty after year 3. That leaves one year at the mercy of goodwill, but everyone makes up their own minds

BUT in my opinion, Porsche should warrant all major items for 10 years from mechanical failure provided properly serviced and not abused.

I have asked members to let me know of their experiences and am gradually building a casebook, but Dr Nadarajah has the greatest list due to his strenuous efforts.

One of the conundrums is, if you make a big song and dance about this, may attract negitve publicity which may affect resale values for the 99% (or whatever) of owners with unaffected cars. They wont thank the Club for this.

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: jac in a box

n4das, good luck!

Have I read your post correctly? You have raised £500k to support legal costs? If correct what an excellent achievement...I do hope you will keep us posted on the progress.

Jackie x

Jackie,
You have read it correctly. Most of us like me have just contributed monies that we would have paid to upgrade to a 997 towards the legal costs. I personally have a retainer with the solicitors of 80k. The others have contributed various amounts
Please dont get me wrong i dont want to take the marque to the cleaners, but when a contribution from the PGB is 800pounds towards a 10k bill you get PI$$ed off especially when the contribution is accompanied by attitude. You then get further infuriated by the fact that you are now listening to a recorded message read out by a gimp on the end of the phone who does not wish to listen to any logical argument. in what other field do you have the situation where you hand over 10's of thousands of pounds then get told the item that you have bought has failed due to no fault of your own.

Steve

I know what you mean by the attitude of some of the owners. I have to say i have met brick walls in my persuit of this matter. Mostly from those who have claimed that it was not possible for Porsches to fail or to fail so regularly. If Porsche does turn up in court then my solicitors will push for them to disclose the true number of failures. As you know the argument from Porsche "its a one off" will not stand up in court!

 

[jac in a box]

NicD

Thanks for your response(s)

You mention 5 failures from Forums, but over what period did they occur? Remember, there are many thousands of 996 and 986 since 1997 out there, BUT for the owner. any failure is one too many.

The 5 failures I mentioned are all recent, all within the last 5 or 6 weeks...it does make for dismal reading.

I understand the reticence, perhaps, of the PCGB to get too involved in these premature engine failure issues for fear of perhaps damaging future customer confidence / current owners residuals.
From a non-technical perspective, and I'm non-tech!, it would appear the engine is fundamentally flawed...all the engine problems (resulting in a replacement engine) I have read of recently appear to be centred around liners or auxialliary driveshaft bearings...and of course, there is the RMS issue.

I don't have a solution to offer. I'll continue to (selfishly) wrap myself in the comforting blanket of security the warranty provides, albiet at a cost (so much for buying into a marque with legendary bullet proof build quality)

What does amaze me though is the inconsistency with which Porsche GB applies their goodwill. Some appear to be out of the warranty period and get the engine replacement free, some are paying a %age (variable) cost and some are left completely frozen out.
I would have thought a modern, well designed engine should be good for at least 150k reliable miles before requiring any major remedial work...many of the failures I have read off occured at very low mileages.

Jackie

 

[jac in a box]

n4das

You have read it correctly. Most of us like me have just contributed monies that we would have paid to upgrade to a 997 towards the legal costs. I personally have a retainer with the solicitors of 80k. The others have contributed various amounts

Amazing...and a courageous commitment!

I take my hat off to you and sincerely wish you the very best of luck - a hint of David and Goliath? My money goes with David

Jackie

 

[Guest]

a hint of David and Goliath? My money goes with David

Except that, this time, Goliath has no need to fight, and can just walk away, counting the profits.

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: John Bellringer

Except that, this time, Goliath has no need to fight, and can just walk away, counting the profits.

I guess they can try but they would have to try and explain as to why a £80k car that has been fully serviced by an OPC fails at less than 13% of its published designed mileage due to a part that is not a wear and tear item. Further this part has never been touched by anybody other than the Porsche. In my case if this part had failed while i was driving at motorway speeds then it would have resulted in injury both myself and others (ask anyone what happens if a connecting rod snaps at 80mph!)

Update from Porsche AG.
After a week of thinking PAG now want my independant inspectors report to tell them whats wrong with my car. After some conversation it turns out this was because i would not "allow my car to be touched by Porsche". Considering that the car has been serviced and now dismanteled by the same OPC i have no idea how this has come about. Further i already sent a letter asking PGB to inspect my car about 8 weeks ago! I am sure it does not take that long to drive from Reading to Wilmslow!

 

[steve lyden brown]

Thanks, Higgy, for the words of encouragement, and, yes, I am a lawyer.

I suppose that much of my disenchantment springs from too many years of club membership, since although it is very hard to stop loving 911's, I find that membership of the club does nothing for me nowadays. That, plus the arrival of the Aston Martin DB9, is sufficient to swing me away from even the delights of 996 ownership. If any other nails were needed in the coffin of my love affair with 911's, then Porsche's attitude to what is obvioulsy a major defect in their cars, is doing absolutely nothing to ensure continuing loyalty from me. However, I can see that I'm likely to keep my 996 until at least a used DB9 convertible falls within my price range, so I guess I'll be around a tad longer !
Cheers,
Steve Lyden-Brown.

 

[Guest]

I purchased a 1999 C2 Cab with 49k miles a few months ago, and had an engine
failure within a few hundred miles of purchasing the vehicle. While driving in 4th
gear on the freeway at 70mph with other traffic, all of a sudden, the engine decided
to throw out a huge plume of smoke, and after later inspection, a huge hole and crack
was left thanks to the rod busting out of the core. Upon contacting porsche
of north america, they told me they wouldn't take back the engine, and i'd
have to pay $16k+ to replace the engine, since they wouldn't even take
back the core, since it wasn't rebuidable.

Because of this I decided to save $6000 and buy an engine out of a theft
recovery 1999 porsche that had it's engine blow at 19k miles and had 9k
miles on the rebuilt engine. A few hundred miles later, the temperature
gauge kept flashing after driving for a few miles. I soon discovered the
head gasket was leaking coolant, and most likely one of the cylinders
internally had come out of it's sleeve.. regardless, the second engine
with only 9k miles on it, would need to be replaced.

So now I have another $16,000 to spend on a 3rd engine in less than 1,000
miles on a car with 50k miles on it. I'm not pushing my luck this time, and
making sure I get the engine with the 24k mile, 2 year warranty.. then i'll
be selling this vehicle and purchasing a car from a car company that gives
a s**t about it's customers that purchase their $100k cars.

Contacts with Porsche of North America... "Too bad so sad, there's nothing
we can do for you." Dealerships.. "There's nothing we can do for you, you
have to pay full dealer cost for the engine and labor. No discounts"

After 2 engine fires, 3 engines, and $37,000 in maintenance costs in
less than 1000 miles of having this vehicle, with absolutely no assistance
from porsche, it can be rest assured I will not be purchasing another p-car
in the near future from a company that treats it's customers worse than
hyundai owners.

For my full story, feel free to visit rennlist, to see all the problems i've had.

I love the car, but it's not worth it, if I can only drive it one or two times
every few months, when it's not on fire or in the shop... and having to
start a new second business just to afford the maintenance costs.

- BobPorsche996 in the USA

 

[Guest]

Bob

Perhaps you would be good enough to respond to the doubts about the credibility issues?

 

[Guest]

Feel free to visit the forum.. I posted copies of my receipts recently.. on rennlist....

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: Adrian Fuller

I would urge caution when reading the above post from bobporsche996. - Check out www.rennlist.com. - This thread has been posted there. Many rennlisters concluded that it was a fake. - You can make up your own minds but I'd suggest reading it first.

Adrian

I have not had time to fully obtain the facts from Bob but i have to say that I have insisted that those who wish to get on the Database that i created suppy me with a copy of an independant engineers report. I really think that if you are not willing to do this then any case that you have will be flawed.

I also have to add that in my opnion many US forums have the attitude "no Porsche fails".

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: n4das
I also have to add that in my opnion many US forums have the attitude "no Porsche fails".

Mahen

I agree and would add from my short experience with our marque the US are not the only ones! [8|]

 

[Charlie_McLaughlin]

Guys,

Sorry I am a little bit late in joining this thread, but last year my then 996 C4 had a new cylinder head at a cost of £5500... Porsche Cars GB gave me the same response you all seem to have had... I paid for its repair and sold it quickly, I now have a 993.. which doesn't seem to have any known problems.

Do you wish to add my details to your list??

Regards

Pennyless Charlie

 

[Guest]

How much proof do you want?

I think this picture says all that there is need to be said.

When I picked my car up yesterday for its 5th RMS replacement (it is now on its 6th!) these three 996 engines
were racked up at the back with rain pooring over them waiting to go back to the factory. All blown engines.

 

[Guest]

Berny

You seem to get where water can't - and with your camera []