carrera4boy
Ex Club Member
Wow...Berny you are my hero....and ive been driving mine like a Yaris for 6 months! Schumacher watch out
]
]996 Engine Failure
- Thread starter Guest
- Start date
Guest
New member
ORIGINAL: carrera4boy
Wow...Berny you are my hero....and ive been driving mine like a Yaris for 6 months! Schumacher watch out![
Having said all that......
I am on my 6th RMS.
I need a new engine according to my OPC (but my independent said that is total BS).
and my gearbox is shot.
and believe it or not I drive it like a Yaris too!
Go figure [
]
Guest
New member
It is disappointing and very worrying to read such threads as this. If my engine blew I would be distraught.
I thought the problems on 996 engines were restricted to the early 3.4's? Fortunately my RS is a completely different unit. If it can win Le Mans then I should be OK.
What we need are some facts. Remember that the 996/Boxster has sold in far greater numbers than any previous 911, so there are bound to be more failures. Armed with total sales compared to amount of failures the reliability or otherwise of these engines can be evalued. Of course if you are one of the unfortunate ones to have had an engine blow up then no amount of evaluation is going to make you feel better!
I have to say that the seemingly poor customer relations exhibited by the OPCs are making a bad situation much worse.
I thought the problems on 996 engines were restricted to the early 3.4's? Fortunately my RS is a completely different unit. If it can win Le Mans then I should be OK.
What we need are some facts. Remember that the 996/Boxster has sold in far greater numbers than any previous 911, so there are bound to be more failures. Armed with total sales compared to amount of failures the reliability or otherwise of these engines can be evalued. Of course if you are one of the unfortunate ones to have had an engine blow up then no amount of evaluation is going to make you feel better!
I have to say that the seemingly poor customer relations exhibited by the OPCs are making a bad situation much worse.
Guest
New member
Here's a laugh for you, I am in Chicago at the moment on business. The morining I left last week I received an invoice from my OPC for the seal they replaced. £11.
As you all know this is my 6th RMS replacement, they didn't charge for the RMS replacement itself but decided to charge me for the part...the seal. Well, yesterday at about 3:00am, my hotel phone rang and it was Mann Island in Liverpool. They had chased me up, rang the US and wanted to find out when I will pay the £11! Can you believe the gall of them. Have they gone absolutely mad? You also all know that they have reccommended that I need a replacement engine to fix my RMS problems but they want to charge me £4000+ for it including good will. Of course I have refused this. As I see it, I took my car into Mann Island to have the 1st RMS fixed over a year ago and since then its been back in 5 times to have it replaced again FOC because persists to leak. So they now decided it needs a new engine and that I should pay for it. But as far as I am concerned they should have diagnosed this at the first RMS replacement when the car had just (4 mths) come out of warranty. I still believe that Porsche should replace the engine at "their" cost as without doubt it is due to a manufacturing fault. Anyway, when I get back home, I will be taking my car back to them again as guess what.....the 6th seal is already leaking at only 60 miles since it was replaced a few weeks back. As far as I am concerned they still have not rectified this problem and I will keep taking it back to them until they rectify it for good. Recall, I did pay £237 for the 1st seal so since it's still faulty, the repair has never been done properly....even though I payed for that repair. For sure PUK and the OPCs don't give a toss about us customers. My nightmare experiences are living proof of that.
Nic, when do you think you will be ready to publish the results of the 996 survey?
Cheers,
Andrew Killington
New member
they rang you in Chicago for £11 !!!!!
that you can almost laugh about but the 6th seal going after 60 miles what the hell is going on [] []
I bet you're tempted to stay where you are
sorry to hear the latest from this sorry tale
Andrew
that you can almost laugh about but the 6th seal going after 60 miles what the hell is going on [
] []I bet you're tempted to stay where you are
sorry to hear the latest from this sorry tale
Andrew
GreigM
New member
Berny,
How about this, get a Porsche warranty - pay the £200 for the pre-warranty inspection, they will diagnose leaky RMS - pay for this to be fixed, £500, pay for the warranty - £750 and then 60 miles later take it back when it (inevitably) leaks again and ask for a full engine replacement. They probably won't allow you to take out the warranty knowing the history of your car, but it might be worth a try just to see how they react []
How about this, get a Porsche warranty - pay the £200 for the pre-warranty inspection, they will diagnose leaky RMS - pay for this to be fixed, £500, pay for the warranty - £750 and then 60 miles later take it back when it (inevitably) leaks again and ask for a full engine replacement. They probably won't allow you to take out the warranty knowing the history of your car, but it might be worth a try just to see how they react [
]
I'm just stunned...
"Let's wake our customer up at 3AM to chase a bill..."[]
"Let's wake our customer up at 3AM to chase a bill..."[
]
Guest
New member
Mark, I know. I could not beleive it. Apparently they rung home and my wife answered. They said they had something important to speak to me about and so because it was Porsche ringing my wife naturally gave them my number as she thought it may be good news or something. She didn't bank on them ringing me at 3:00am here in Chicago. All this for £11. Incredible. All that massive profit they are making too. What planet are they on!
GreigM, this whole affair started out back in Oct/Nov last year when I took my car in for its 36,000 mile service at 30,000 miles. Yes it was early but I have always had it serviced anually regardless. But only 4 months earlier it had just had its 24,000 mile major service.
Anyway, I took it in early because my warranty had just run out and I wanted to get on the extended warranty scheme and so put it in for the inspection. That was the first time the RMS problem appeared. Plus they told me the gearbox was whining. If the car was 4 months younger I would have had both these things done under warranty but because it was out of warranty they just fixed the seal on good-will (I had to pay £237) and told me to consider replacing the gearbox. At that time it was no big deal. It was just a case of, well OK then fix the seal and I will get the extended warranty. But then they said they would not give me the ext-warranty unless i replace the gearbox. Don't forget this was just a few mionths outside of its warranty period. So I then started in communication with Reading over a good-will claim on the gearbox. This tooks some months and in between this time the RMS was replaced again.
When they finally came up with a figure of £3,300 that I had to pay towards a new gearbox the seal was gone yet again (3rd time). I wasn't happy about having to pay this ammount for a new gearbox on a car that had just cloked 30,000 miles but they backed me up against a wall as without it fixed I don't get the ext-warranty. So I wrote a letter to Germany. Never ever did get a reply to date. Then I started voicing my problems on the Forums. Finally I am at the stage where I am now. But now my car not only needs a new gearbox, it needs a new engine too! And they are asking me to contribute over £4000 towards that....plus fitting etc, I am looking at 10 Grand!!! They said they won't fix any more RMSs unless I replace the engine!
And all this is because the problems were not diagnosed at 24,000 miles when it had its major service and when it was still in warranty. At 30,000 miles my problems began and they have streched it out over a year. I am now in 40,000 miles and the car is laid up.
The worst part about this is that my independent said that my RMS problem is something I could just live with as most 996 owners have the problem and just live with it. And it goes in to them on Dec 1 for a gearbox rebuild.....hopefully at about £1000.....if they can salvage bits from a bunch of other broken gearboxes the have out back. If all goes well my car will be back to normal for Xmas (ie gearbox fine and live with the reoccuring RMS problem). The car itself drives wonderfully. Never misses a gear and doesn't seem to use up any oil despite the RMS problem. In fact the engine purrs beautifully.
But the customer service experience I have had with PUK, my OPC and no response with Germany, together with this latent manufacturing fault which they won't acknowledge and the nightmare bills I have had through bad engineering will definitely mean this will be my 3rd and very last Porsche ever. I haven't a clue what car I will get next but will have to see. Dr. Ferry Porsche, I am certain will be turning in his grave at what I have had to go through with this car and the company. And in general, PUK are pathetic and unsympathetic to any of its out of warranty customers.
As for the extended warranty, I have given this some thought based on my experience. I feel certain that while they have said (recently) they will replace the RMS under the ext warranty scheme, if it becomes a repeat RMS problem like mine, I am certain they will not ever entertain a replacement engine with out at least a 50% contribution towards it. They will string you out as long as they can with this attitude in the hope that you sell the car and pas the problem on to someone else who will just do the same. You have to understand that PUK has no relationship with the OPCs other than them being franchises. So the OPC has to fight its own financial issues between the customer and PUK. PUK have no intention of offereing more than 50% on a good will claim for out of warranty cars so the customer ends up with the remainder of the bill. For warranty claims the OPC is entirely responsible for the repair cost. Including parts. So you can see that this is the reason that none of us in the UK get replacement engines FOC for repat RMS problem engines. In the US it's different. PNA are more sympathetic towards their OPCs who are in turn more sympathetic with its customers who in turn are protected by laws such as lemon laws etc. Also, PNA offer 4 year warranty for these same cars that we get only 2 years from PUK. So PNA are only just starting to see out of warranty claims on these cars but even these are getting new engines for repeat RMS problem cars.
In summary, the car is manufactured with a latent flaw. That flaw lies within the engine. As UK oweners we will have to live with the problem......in or out of warranty. Iv'e said this before, if my car was bought in the US it would have had all its problems sorted by now under the 4 year warranty.
We don't have a chance here in the UK. Period.
GreigM, this whole affair started out back in Oct/Nov last year when I took my car in for its 36,000 mile service at 30,000 miles. Yes it was early but I have always had it serviced anually regardless. But only 4 months earlier it had just had its 24,000 mile major service.
Anyway, I took it in early because my warranty had just run out and I wanted to get on the extended warranty scheme and so put it in for the inspection. That was the first time the RMS problem appeared. Plus they told me the gearbox was whining. If the car was 4 months younger I would have had both these things done under warranty but because it was out of warranty they just fixed the seal on good-will (I had to pay £237) and told me to consider replacing the gearbox. At that time it was no big deal. It was just a case of, well OK then fix the seal and I will get the extended warranty. But then they said they would not give me the ext-warranty unless i replace the gearbox. Don't forget this was just a few mionths outside of its warranty period. So I then started in communication with Reading over a good-will claim on the gearbox. This tooks some months and in between this time the RMS was replaced again.
When they finally came up with a figure of £3,300 that I had to pay towards a new gearbox the seal was gone yet again (3rd time). I wasn't happy about having to pay this ammount for a new gearbox on a car that had just cloked 30,000 miles but they backed me up against a wall as without it fixed I don't get the ext-warranty. So I wrote a letter to Germany. Never ever did get a reply to date. Then I started voicing my problems on the Forums. Finally I am at the stage where I am now. But now my car not only needs a new gearbox, it needs a new engine too! And they are asking me to contribute over £4000 towards that....plus fitting etc, I am looking at 10 Grand!!! They said they won't fix any more RMSs unless I replace the engine!
And all this is because the problems were not diagnosed at 24,000 miles when it had its major service and when it was still in warranty. At 30,000 miles my problems began and they have streched it out over a year. I am now in 40,000 miles and the car is laid up.
The worst part about this is that my independent said that my RMS problem is something I could just live with as most 996 owners have the problem and just live with it. And it goes in to them on Dec 1 for a gearbox rebuild.....hopefully at about £1000.....if they can salvage bits from a bunch of other broken gearboxes the have out back. If all goes well my car will be back to normal for Xmas (ie gearbox fine and live with the reoccuring RMS problem). The car itself drives wonderfully. Never misses a gear and doesn't seem to use up any oil despite the RMS problem. In fact the engine purrs beautifully.
But the customer service experience I have had with PUK, my OPC and no response with Germany, together with this latent manufacturing fault which they won't acknowledge and the nightmare bills I have had through bad engineering will definitely mean this will be my 3rd and very last Porsche ever. I haven't a clue what car I will get next but will have to see. Dr. Ferry Porsche, I am certain will be turning in his grave at what I have had to go through with this car and the company. And in general, PUK are pathetic and unsympathetic to any of its out of warranty customers.
As for the extended warranty, I have given this some thought based on my experience. I feel certain that while they have said (recently) they will replace the RMS under the ext warranty scheme, if it becomes a repeat RMS problem like mine, I am certain they will not ever entertain a replacement engine with out at least a 50% contribution towards it. They will string you out as long as they can with this attitude in the hope that you sell the car and pas the problem on to someone else who will just do the same. You have to understand that PUK has no relationship with the OPCs other than them being franchises. So the OPC has to fight its own financial issues between the customer and PUK. PUK have no intention of offereing more than 50% on a good will claim for out of warranty cars so the customer ends up with the remainder of the bill. For warranty claims the OPC is entirely responsible for the repair cost. Including parts. So you can see that this is the reason that none of us in the UK get replacement engines FOC for repat RMS problem engines. In the US it's different. PNA are more sympathetic towards their OPCs who are in turn more sympathetic with its customers who in turn are protected by laws such as lemon laws etc. Also, PNA offer 4 year warranty for these same cars that we get only 2 years from PUK. So PNA are only just starting to see out of warranty claims on these cars but even these are getting new engines for repeat RMS problem cars.
In summary, the car is manufactured with a latent flaw. That flaw lies within the engine. As UK oweners we will have to live with the problem......in or out of warranty. Iv'e said this before, if my car was bought in the US it would have had all its problems sorted by now under the 4 year warranty.
We don't have a chance here in the UK. Period.
bones
New member
Hi Berny sorry to hear you are making little progress, many of us owners of older 911s are shocked at the current crop of engine failures and it doesn't bode well for upholding the reliability that the 70s cars started and the 80s/90s 911s firmly established (with a few issues that were acknowledged and generally fixed).
It would be a shame to give up Porsche motoring altogether because of the poor attitude of the current Porsche management and franchises, have you considered buying an earlier car and treating it as a hobby and then drive something else day to day? I certainly get tremendous fun and pride of ownership out of my old SC, it's a blast every time I drive it. Insurance this next year will be £267.00 on an agreed value of £15,000, maintenance is retatively cheap, the most expensive things have been bodywork and mods I have chosen to make to it.
It would be a shame to give up Porsche motoring altogether because of the poor attitude of the current Porsche management and franchises, have you considered buying an earlier car and treating it as a hobby and then drive something else day to day? I certainly get tremendous fun and pride of ownership out of my old SC, it's a blast every time I drive it. Insurance this next year will be £267.00 on an agreed value of £15,000, maintenance is retatively cheap, the most expensive things have been bodywork and mods I have chosen to make to it.
Guest
New member
Hey Bones, you know you just may have something there. I have owned a 912 Targa and a 964 in the past. I was considering a 964 again maybe and live with the independents. It's very likely I will go with that idea. If I get my 996 Cab fixed up I could probably sell it and be able to buy a 964 and say an Audi as a daily. To be honest I am all mixed up with my affair with this Porsche financially and emotionally but I still ove the car. I will have to see how things pan out over the next few months, I will then make decisions. But never again would I give Porsche the satisfaction of my hard earned cash. The company isn't the Porsche we all remember. I guess it had to happen. It's just a pitty that their attitude towards customers as a company not necessarily their cars are failing them. In time this will be the end of them unless they change soon. If the 997 has similar reliability and/or manufacturing flaws as the 996 and Bosster they are doomed. Only time will tell.
Guest
New member
Hey Berny, apologies if you have already answered this somewhere, but could you remind me what the symptoms are of an RMS failure? You mention that yours is running well and using no oil, so I wondered how the problem manifested itself.
Mine is using a little oil, and the clutch will slip slightly under (extreme) provocation, but there is a noticeable smell of "clutch" after long journeys, so it may be slipping more than I realise.
Other than that, it runs really well and I love it....
Steve
996 C4S
Mine is using a little oil, and the clutch will slip slightly under (extreme) provocation, but there is a noticeable smell of "clutch" after long journeys, so it may be slipping more than I realise.
Other than that, it runs really well and I love it....
Steve
996 C4S
chrisr
New member
Being an owner of an older Porsche that in my first 13 months of Porsche Ownership has been nothing short of great both the car and the service received from independents ( mainly Hartech ) I read the many RMS/Engine problems and the continuing theme of appalling service from the OPC's with a real degree of sadness that people who are parting with there hard earned cash to buy a top marque sportscar with such reputed quality as a Boxster/996 should not only have to put up with repeated problems but its the real lack of customer service from PUK/OPC that must be disheartning. The days of Porsche's being bulletproof seems IMO to be coming to an end - my pride and joy which is not to everybodys cup of tea has just clicked over 134,000 miles today and I have no doubt will roll on past 200,000 with tender loving care [] .
Maybe it is only a small percentage having real problems with there cars but the real shame is people are and will fall out of favour with the brand that so many of us grew up wanting to own - I hope the day doesnt come where I long for a Nissan/Suzuki again, and I really hope that the people battling for the right result continue and that the people at the very very top of Porsche dont forget its roots and what makes them its profits.
] .Maybe it is only a small percentage having real problems with there cars but the real shame is people are and will fall out of favour with the brand that so many of us grew up wanting to own - I hope the day doesnt come where I long for a Nissan/Suzuki again, and I really hope that the people battling for the right result continue and that the people at the very very top of Porsche dont forget its roots and what makes them its profits.
Guest
New member
Hi Steve,
Typically the RMS leaks only about one or two drips of oil the size of a small coin onto the garage floor a month.
Some don't see drips of oil just a sweating of oil around the base of the bell housing where the gearbox meets the engine.
The oil leak is dead center. Oil dripping from anywhere else is not the RMS. Also you should be aware that there is
another seal that can leak called the IMS (intermediate seal). This is just below the RMS. The RMS is the seal around the crank shaft you can see it in the large circle cebter of the picture (dimples around it). The IMS is the little seal below it.
They both can leak but the main problematic one is the RMS. As I said I rarely have to top up my oil and if I do it is by a very small ammount which is normal for a car even without RMS problems.
Regarding the clutch: it should "never" slip while you are cruising/driving. Only when you try to select a gear and typically when your are at a stop and starting off in 1st. If you get a slip at low revs then its a shure sign the clutch has gone west. If you get it at very high revs then this is very possible due to bad driving technique. You will know the smell of clutch burning.
The smell you are getting is probably brake pads. BTW, my clutch is the same one at 41,000 miles on my 996 and the last time I saw it (4 weeks ago) it looked very healthy.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Typically the RMS leaks only about one or two drips of oil the size of a small coin onto the garage floor a month.
Some don't see drips of oil just a sweating of oil around the base of the bell housing where the gearbox meets the engine.
The oil leak is dead center. Oil dripping from anywhere else is not the RMS. Also you should be aware that there is
another seal that can leak called the IMS (intermediate seal). This is just below the RMS. The RMS is the seal around the crank shaft you can see it in the large circle cebter of the picture (dimples around it). The IMS is the little seal below it.
They both can leak but the main problematic one is the RMS. As I said I rarely have to top up my oil and if I do it is by a very small ammount which is normal for a car even without RMS problems.
Regarding the clutch: it should "never" slip while you are cruising/driving. Only when you try to select a gear and typically when your are at a stop and starting off in 1st. If you get a slip at low revs then its a shure sign the clutch has gone west. If you get it at very high revs then this is very possible due to bad driving technique. You will know the smell of clutch burning.
The smell you are getting is probably brake pads. BTW, my clutch is the same one at 41,000 miles on my 996 and the last time I saw it (4 weeks ago) it looked very healthy.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Steve,
C4's are a lot harder on their clutches than C2's like Berny's.
Worth getting it checked out. The RMS would I think, be changed as part of the 'clutch out' execise......
RMS??? Who cares about a penny sized smear on your garage floor??? Unless it pours out the bottom as you pour it in the top I'd leave it[]
C4's are a lot harder on their clutches than C2's like Berny's.
Worth getting it checked out. The RMS would I think, be changed as part of the 'clutch out' execise......
RMS??? Who cares about a penny sized smear on your garage floor??? Unless it pours out the bottom as you pour it in the top I'd leave it[
]
Guest
New member
First off I appologise for missing the pic out. Attached it now.
Tim, no way should the RMS be changed as a matter of course when the clutch is changed.
Disturbing a none-leaking RMS is asking for trouble. If it don't leak leave it alone.
The other thing is that a penny sized oil leak may mean you need a new engine as the
crank could be bent, the crank bore whole could be ovaled or the block casing could be misaligned.
Many people just leave the RMS and ignore the little oil leak. But they could be looking at
trouble in the future......
Tim, no way should the RMS be changed as a matter of course when the clutch is changed.
Disturbing a none-leaking RMS is asking for trouble. If it don't leak leave it alone.
The other thing is that a penny sized oil leak may mean you need a new engine as the
crank could be bent, the crank bore whole could be ovaled or the block casing could be misaligned.
Many people just leave the RMS and ignore the little oil leak. But they could be looking at
trouble in the future......
Guest
New member
Thanks guys,
Overall I think I don't have too much to worry about, but as I am still under warranty for another 3 months I think I'll get it looked at to be safe.
Berny, you're right that it may well be brakes I can smell - I'm not quite sure of the difference between the two (although sometimes I think the smell might be coming from the passenger seat...)
Steve
996 C4S
Overall I think I don't have too much to worry about, but as I am still under warranty for another 3 months I think I'll get it looked at to be safe.
Berny, you're right that it may well be brakes I can smell - I'm not quite sure of the difference between the two (although sometimes I think the smell might be coming from the passenger seat...)
Steve
996 C4S
Tool Pants
non Club member but v. knowledgable
Berny, I do not see an oil leak in that picture. Are you sure there is oil in the engine?[]
In that picture the intermediate shaft flange has been removed. The flange has an oil seal on it and is a leak source, as are the 3 bolts for the flange. In my picture the old style flange is on the left and the new style on the right. The old style had a simple black O-ring oil seal. The new style is orange/red and has 3 ribs. The new style seal will not fit on an old style flange as the seal is wider. So if you have a car with the old style flange and the seal leaks, then they install the new style flange and seal.
]In that picture the intermediate shaft flange has been removed. The flange has an oil seal on it and is a leak source, as are the 3 bolts for the flange. In my picture the old style flange is on the left and the new style on the right. The old style had a simple black O-ring oil seal. The new style is orange/red and has 3 ribs. The new style seal will not fit on an old style flange as the seal is wider. So if you have a car with the old style flange and the seal leaks, then they install the new style flange and seal.
You're up early Tool Pants!
Have you seen the RMS thread in the Boxster section? - (Although you've already contributed to it - but you might not know it!)
[8D]
Have you seen the RMS thread in the Boxster section? - (Although you've already contributed to it - but you might not know it!)
[8D]
Posts made and opinions expressed are those of the individual forum members
Use of the Forum is subject to the Terms and Conditions
