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996 Engine Failure

There's the fighting spirit we want to see Daniel ;)
You hit the nail right on the head. We all agree that this is a manufacturing defect sitting latent. It is indeed a time bomb.
I have said this before, "The Porsche Experience" is one of getting in my car sh*tting my pants that it wont blow up.
But the reality of it is that PAG and/or PUK will "not" acknowledge this problem. If you speak to them you will be amazed
at how little they care. In fact they will be glaoting in the fact that you will have to purchase another engine from them!
It's the perfect sale.....until one day nobody wants to buy them anymore.
 
Scouser,

As you are one of the biggest contributers to the RMS threads, I would very much like your understanding of the issue. I was under the impression that the RMS tended to leak either because 1) The cradle was misaligned with respect to the crankshaft on some engines and hence the rotation was oval rather than perfectly round, hence the seal leaked, or 2) Misaligned Getrag driveshafts (your post 28/9/2004). You also posted
If left unattended a failed RMS may lead to the collapse of the main bearing or the untimely wear of the engine due to crankshaft wobble and thus ultimately leading to catastrophic engine failure. It may also lead to clutch and/or flywheel failure due to oil contamination from the oil leaking into the gearbox bell housing.

I am asking because I am looking to buy a 996 in the near future. I assumed that an RMS leak was a sign of possible impending doom for the engine, because it could have arisen due to a misaligned crank or a dodgy gearbox (those are the two main theories so far suggested, as far as I am aware)...so as long as I stayed clear of those I would be ok.

In your last post you suggested that
In most cases the seal fails because temperature changes
in the alloy block cause it to warp (especialy when the engine is cooling) or the two halfs of the engine block
(held together with bolts) become misaligned]

If that's the case, then an RMS leak would not be a very good predictor of future engine problems, and I'm going to be very worried about buying any 996. What makes you think that most 996's/986's will suffer from RMS failures due to the heating cooling reason given? I mean, if that was the case, there would be a direct trend between the mileage of cars and cars with RMS leaks. The more miles (more time for heating and cooling to take effect) the more chance of an RMS leak.

I have read in other posts that cars that haven't had a leak and have covered 50k or more, should be safe....and in my car's case that seems to be true (so far!). There seems to be quite a few cases of cars that have RMS leaks when only just out of guarantee and with low mileage. So what makes you so sure that its just a matter of time for an RMS leak to appear, and that in most cases the leak is due to the heating cooling effect?

Thanks for your views in advance......from a now worried prospective buyer!

 
ORIGINAL: Rodney Naghar

Thanks for your views in advance......from a now worried prospective buyer!

Rodney my opinions are likely to be extremely biased and negative because of the problems and treatment I have had with my 996 so take what I have to say here as either good or bad information. I will leave with you to decide.

I think there is no kidding around with the RMS issue. Go seek every Porsche Forum on the ethernet and you will see that it's the most talked about subject in regards to this marque. The RMS is a problem. I don't think I need to convince you or anyone else on that matter.

As for what it means. Well all cars have their share of RMS leaks. But in the 986 and 996 its is too common and especially for a car of this price. It is, after all, supposed to be the epitome of German engineering quality. The name Porsche exudes the meaning of quality and that's what we have come to expect when purchase these exotic cars.

Many say that the RMS leak is nothing to worry about and you should just live with it. Other's say its a serious problem as it can lead to future nightmares. All I can tell you is what I have learned after 5 RMS replacements and a knackered gearbox (which I hope to have fixed in January at my own expense).

The crankshaft has 7 bearings although all but the Front Main Bearing and Rear Main Bearing are shell bearings. The other two are encapsulated bearings that fit onto each end of the shaft. The seal we talk about so much is called the Rear Main Seal. It sits on the end facing the gearbox. There is a FMS (Front Main Seal) that is on the front of the crank and also an IMS Intermediate seal which is attached to the intermediate shaft at the gearbox end. The purpose of a seal is two fold: a) to keep the oil from seeping out of the engine and b) to prevent dirt entering into it (in the case of RMS vis clutch dust). If the RMS fails completely then there will be considerable ammounts of oil leaking and probably clutch/flywheel contamination. If it fails partially, then it will seep oil out to the bell housing. Over time this can build up and be swished onto the clutch mechanism (one guy on rennlist has just reported this exact problem happened to his 996). If the Main bearing is contaminated it may lead to its detruction as the contamination wears at the bearing mechanism. If the main bearing fails then the engine will have serious problems. If the bearing has play and the crank has a wobble (even by a thou of an inch) it may lead to gearbox and/or engine problems. Conversly, if the gearbox has a problem or is not splined into the clutch mechanism correctly (aligned) then it can cause excessive load on the crankshaft and thus lead to Main bearing and/or RMS problems. It's is also possible for the engine block to warp or the two block halves to become missailigned due to temperature changes (cooling) or incorrectly tightened bolts. Porsche has released a new set of "blue" bolts and there have been several changes in the RMS seal (I think 4).

Regarding engine damage: The fact that Porsche have produced several TSBs and different parts (bolts, seals, bearings and even engine block) is evidence that there is likely long term damage imminent. Consider also that Porsche often replace engines (especially in the US and for ROW warranty cars) for repeat RMS offending engines. This is evidence that there is reason to be worried. Why would they go to such drastic measures if it was nothing to be concerned about.

Regarding is it worth the risk: Well the cost of an RMS eplacement is at least 6 hours labour and possibly a clutch and flywheel. A flywheel is about £400 and a clutch about £250. You can get an RMS replaced at an independent for as little as £270 but then you will forfeit any claim with Porsche in the future if you should need it. If your car is within warranty then you are covered. But out of warranty and you are in my situation... with not much of a leg to stand on. If you sell the car and you pass on the problems then you may be liable for the repair costs by the new owner. In any case residuals of this car are falling rapidly because of the RMS and engine problems. If you're rich and can sustain the cost of running these cars with this knowledge then it is worth the risk.

Regarding engines blowing up: From what I have seen most of these have been cylinder lining issues. The 996 engine uses cylinder sleeves. These sleeves are made from highly porous materia (25% silicon, 75% air) which is cast into the crankcase cyinder bores. At casting time, the air escapes leaving only the silicon in the cylinder lining but this is known to breakdown due to condensation buildup in the cylinder bores which lead to the sleeves turning to paste. The resulting play in the cylinder bore causes the engine piston to shake and collapse. The debris spread throught the engine causes catastophic engine failure. The only answer is a replacement engine. Of course if a bearing or bearing shell should fail then the same problem occurs.

Regarding Porsche's attitude: Well they are, after all, a public corporate buisness with a sole aim to satisfy its shareholders. They are not in the business of doing anyone any favours. Saying that, I have to be fair and say that PUK do "normally" offer good-will on a car that is 5 years old or younger. But after that your on your own. The main issue is that so many 996 (and Boxster) owners have reprted RMS failures and engines blowing up at low mileage. Much more than the norm. In many cases there are multiple RMS failures reported as in my case. But Porsche refuse to acknowledge the problem. Furthermore, it is clearly a manufacturing fault or defect in manufacturing process. If it wasn't then they would not have come out with new types of parts in an effort to fix the problem and it would not be so common. It also would not show up until the car has done considerable mileage but the RMS has been known to fail on the showroom floor in a car with delivery miles. The fact that it's a manufacturing defect means they have sold their goods without them being fit for their purpose and as a result they have breached the Sale of Goods Act of 1994. Then there is another question, why is that we don't have FMS failures reported? It seems the main issue is only the RMS or IMS but mostly the former. In any case it's at the gearbox or torque end of the engine. So it is feasible that the gearbox could be the cause or at least the area where the transfer of power to it is affected. You also have to take into account the service history of the car. If it's been maintained correcty by the Porsche dealership using Porsche approved parts and procedures then there should be no reason that the mechanics of the car should fail in this manner. Especially in an engine of this calibre and at such low mileage as is seen so often vis my car's 1st RMS was at 27,000 miles....and so ws the gearbox. Finally you also have to take into consideration the survey's that PCGB are conducting. The Boxster survey already shows clearly that the RMS failure is all too common. I feel certain the 996 survey will say same. I am particularly interested also in the rate of engine failures in the 996 and its relation to the RMS. But we will have to wait and see the outcome.

So, in summary, they are "the" best car to drive. But take it from me, they are mechanically flawed and unless you have warranty, you better have a very big slush fund.

Hope this helps.




 
Whilst I have now parted with my 996, I cannot remain aloof from all of the problems of RMS, because I gave the car to " 'Er Indoors" to keep her sweet on my DB9 purchase. This means, of course, that any possible RMS failure in her car will now have to be paid for by her out of her earnings( immoral or otherwise) and that this will inevitably impact on me !

With this in mind, can I please ask if, after all this time, is the Club still without a focus, committe or nominee established for the purpose of dealing with RMS issues ? It certainly seems that way to me ( but then don't bother reading the magazine )
SGLB
 
Some titbits...
These are taken from various recent postings on other Porsche Forums regarding RMS. All these are from individual posters and are USA based:

"...my local dealer told me that if a particular car experiences the RMS problem three times, they have authorization to replace the engine because Porsche has not provided them with the tools needed to machine/modify/whatever the crankcase at the seal surfaces."

"My clutch was replaced on my last car, the 2002 996 due to the RMS problem."

"My '04 C4S Cab began showing a few signs of oil about a month ago (took delivery May '04). Small spot in same location, about the size of a quarter."

"Mine too Guys, i have an 04 with 21,000 kms ( approx 14,000 miles), dealer will be changing mine today. along with a clutch..................It really is too bad that Porsche is more concerned with profit then customer service................I mean this really does put a bad taste in my mouth, Way to go Porsche!, I do hope that Brand Name means something to those guys because I WILL NOT get another one."

"The "new" engine having an RMS leak at 9K miles worries me much more than the original going at 29K, as it clearly indicates things hadn't all been sorted out by February when the new engine went in. As long as Porsche keeps paying for the repairs and providing a decent loaner for the days they have the car, I'm not too upset, but if I start having to pay I'll certainly be very unhappy."

And one "un-named" 996 owner is "the" ultimate Porsche fan. In the true American fashion, this person even went to the trouble of tattooing the Porsche emblem to an arm and then had black tears (oil drips) added every time an RMS was replaced.

I could write a book on the stuff that I have collected, read and emailed on this RMS/engine subject. BTW in case you didn't know, I am an author. It could be a serious project.








FFB40175AEB4484CA97CB6F2F1AA4AF2.jpg
 
Steve,

I am the Club rep on this issue, why not give me a call (my number is in the Porsche post) if you have not read the many Forum posts or the small mention in November Post.
We will shortly be collating the 996 Survey replies received so far, and will send a second, reminder letter out to those who did not reply, so as to achieve a statistically valid result.

BUT, Porsche Cars are showing no signs of altering their stated position of treating each case on its merits.
 
Boxster was 25% failures amongst the 50% who replied

The partial result so far of the 996 survey looks similar.
 
Thanks Nic,

And I guess that of the letters sent out, I would assume that disproportionately more RMS 'failed' owners would have replied. So probably bringing the real percentage to around the 20% mark?

I am trying to quantify the scale of the problem, especially with regard to RMS leaks and the link to engine/gearbox failures (slipped liners notwithstanding) We all need to know all the facts as best we can. Because, although we need to have a strong case to take to PUK, what happens in the meantime, or if they dont change their stance? I want to know, in reality how worried should any future 996/986 buyer really be?

 
Dan,

We are all sorry to hear your news - catastrophic engine failures should not happen to a car of this 'class' regardless of how it has been driven. Rev limiters prevent engines over revving, except in the case of wrong gear selection - which Porsche can easily establish from the cars black box.

In answer to your plea for help I have an alternative suggestion to that of 'joining the ever lengthening queue with Scouser and others' - but only if the car was bought from a Dealer rather than a private sale.
 
Thanks, Nic, for your response to my concerns about the RMS problem.
As it happens, merely to learn that the Club has nominated someone to be a contact point on this issue, goes a long way to calming me.........as does the fact that my 996 now belongs to the Missus ! But, best of all is that ,as far as I can tell, there are no signs of the problem in her car.................well, not yet anyway !
Cheerss,
Steve.
 
Steve,

Two words spring to mind. One rhymes with SIT and t'other rhymes with CARED !

Why say that?Its just not constructive. Do you actually have figures as to % engine/gearbox failures? Is that % any better or worse than Ferrari's or Aston Martin's?

I know I'm looking for information that just isnt there...but I dont want to feel like every time I turn the key in the ignition I have to pray it doesnt blow up........when that just isnt true. How many engine failures do you actually know of in the UK....?
 
Rodney,
I know of 6 people who own 996's in the North West alone who have had engines blow up.
Here's a pic out the back of my OPC taken recently. See 3 engines ready to be carted off to the scrapper.
I asked about these and the engineer said they were all blown up.
I have also personally witnessed 23 blown up engines piled up out the back of Stratstones in Wilmslow. Pitty I didn't have my camera with me. Only last week at my Independent Tech9, I saw them drag out another blwon up engine.
And that's just my account.
They are all 996 engines!

Mahen, help me out here....



A3EE2FB766FF497F9B91264FF411463A.jpg
 

ORIGINAL: Rodney Naghar

Note to self: Pray before you turn that key......................

Yes exactly. I do.
It's what I call "The Porsche Experience". But it never used to be that way in my 964 or 912.
 
Steve,

I specifically asked for member who have had engine failures to contact me, and so far, not so many have, so this has relaxed me a little on this point. of course, for those affected, it is a large issue. I will be following this point up in the 996 survey.

My clear advice to everyone is to take out the Porsche extended warranty. This then covers both RMS and engine failures plus emergency cover. though if you are already, affected, you have to rectify all problems before the cover will be offered.

If you have a problem, there are clear steps to be taken with Porsche Cars, but they have a very structured response based it seem, on the history of the car and owner and reward customer loyalty (to Porsche Cars GB). There are several cases where goodwill payments are made to cars outside the warranty, so always worth applying.

I will never stop pushing Porsche to take better care of its customers and also to extend the standard warranty to 4 years, as in the US.

Just so you know, I had an RMS replaced on my second Boxster S at trade in time, I didn't even think to ask for a goodwill payment. On my current one, I have just had the second RMS replaced under warranty.

Generally speaking, the RMS is a small problem, that has to be rectified at some point, and will cost between £300 and £700. For the few cases which re-occur, it is more serious and Porsche should grip these better.

just to remind you, on my '73 RS .7, I had to rebuild the engine and gear box twice at enormous (at the time) expense, though I was using it for Club racing. Dont tell me that all Porsches used to be bullet proof.
 

ORIGINAL: NicD

Boxster was 25% failures amongst the 50% who replied

The partial result so far of the 996 survey looks similar.

But presumably here you're referring to RMS failures, which have an unclear relationship to engine failure. I'm not too worried about a few drops of oil on the drive, so how many engine failures is the survey showing, your later post seems to imply very few?
 
Hi Rodney,

You query as to why I have suggested that 996/Boxster owners should be very worried about RMS failure, Moreover, you go on to state that my comment iwas not constructive.

Please let me respond by saying that, for a 996 owner whose car has NOT been affected by RMS problems, I have previously been quite constructive, even giving my phone number ( I am a commercial lawyer, not without extensive knowledge of issues such as this ) out on this website for owners whose cars had failed and who specifically asked that they could ring me for advice-
NOBODY did !!! Despite this, barely a day passes without yet another slew of mails on this subject being submitted by very worried Porsche owners, and, to my eyes, at least, very little positive action seemed to have been taken, although I may be wrong about that, since I don't even open the Club magazine, let alone read it (which begs the question- are those that do read it happy with whatever action IS being taken ? )

You ask about Ferrari and Astons having similar failures. I am not quite sure that, given the production figures of these cars (never mind about their unit cost ),one can make any sort of comparison, but let me just say that, as a longstanding member of the Ferrari club and a newly joined member of the Aston bunch, nobody in either clubs has ever spoken to me of either any Ferraris or Astons ever suffering similar problems i.e. such a seemingly widespread, serious, virtually chronic failure of an important component in a major area within two of the most popular and desirable cars of a manufacturer's range ! And yet, this is just what we appear to be suffering from with our Porsches, a manufacturer whose cars were previously a byeword for reliability, longevity and engineering excellence !

In closing, let me say to you that I have idea how many bloody engines have failed within the UK
(or anywhere else, for that matter ! ), but isn't that really the point ? We don't know this, and we don't know that, but we do know is that there IS a proplem, and that Porsche appear to be doing f--k all about it ! And if that doen't make you s--t scared, then nowt will !
Ciao,
Steve
 
Steve,

I am not disagreeing with the fact that there is a problem and PUK are doing nothing about it,and that their attitude thus fur has been disgraceful, I have stated that before.
Your earlier comment - giving the impression that we're all doomed to face failed RMSs/exploding engines/gearboxes and that its just a matter of time - was not very helpful.
I just want to try and quantify the problem as best I can, so I can make an informed purchasing decision.
Scouser, listed the cases he's had experience of, and that made it a lot clearer to me how big the problem really could be.

We are all on the same side Steve, and I hope the unlucky members do take you up on your very generous offer to help them.
 

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