996TT

[DavidL]

Has anyone driven one of these? I must admit I rather like the look of them and they are falling in price like a stone! Best so far is 26K. I'm not in the market at present but I could save my pennies over the next year.
My concern is that are they really too much?
My 944T seems quick for day to day use and with a liitle more fettling will be both quicker and more flexible to drive. Another 120bhp could be way too quick to be usable on the road.
Alternatively it could be just great...

 

[George Elliott]

Excellent question - a water cooled porsche turbo with 4wd and 400bhp, and the sills wont be a problem.

I have not driven one so cannot answer,

the silence is deafening.................

George

944T
964

 

[sawood12]

I've not driven one but know enough about them to know that I want one. I didn't realise they had dropped that much in price. If truly good ones are down to the mid £20'sk then despite them still being outside my budget I would be very very tempted to jump ship. They are truly in a completely different league. A work colleague has one and I drove behind him on the way to a trackday at Donington. I thought I was doing well to be keeping up and was thinking that these 911 turbos aren't much cop, but then he left me for dead from about 60mph while I was on full throttle as if I was stood still. The rate he pulled away from me was like he was doing a standing start while I remained stationary. I think my jaw actually did drop. On the circiut he was taking it gingerly and I was keeping up, but then he opened her up on the straight and again it was just like that scene in Star Wars: A New Hope where the millenium Falcon jumped into hyperdrive and left the persuing Star Destroyers stationary. They are truly a superb bit of kit.

Also on a recent Ferrari 360 experence at Donington we shared the briefing with guys on the 996turbo experience. The track was damp and us in the Ferrari's were told to take it easy as rear wheel drive mid engined sports cars are twitchy in damp conditions. He turned to the 996 turbo guys and said that they could drive the car as hard as they liked regardless of the contitions as they are such an "astonishing car" (his actual words). I was so jelous.

Anyway, all i've been able to glean from my mate about running costs are that they are not as much as you might think. Also as far as I can tell they have bullet proof reliability. However I think they can chew up clutches if you like your standing starts. Wow, i'm going to look on Piston Heads classifieds.

 

[DavidL]

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/853899.htm

Someone bought it, surprise! It was tip mind.

Or this one for a manual
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/827885.htm

Ray Northway has green one that is around the 28K mark. The interior is, well, interesting but if it comes from Ray it will be a sorted machine. Steve Bull knew it too when we had a chat, lived in Lambourn apparently.
Could be there is a deal as it is not a desirable combo but no doubt a belting machine and he has had it a while....

Must not get a loan, must not get a loan, repeat after me....


They don't seem to suffer form the same engine maladies as the equivalent age NA cars, but then neither do the 3.6 facelift C2 and 4. Apparently...
My impression is that these newer cars are more straightforward to service than the older ones, although replacement bits won't be cheap. Radiators are an issue I think. Not that I have been looking you understand.

 

[sawood12]

The turbo's and the GT3's have the GT1 race-derived engine which is different from the engine in the Carrera's/Boxsters/Cayman's which have had some niggles - though are nowhere near as unreliable or problematic as popular opinion would have you believe. Mechaically the turbo's are bulletproof. The newer 911's have come under alot of flack from the so called old guard hard core Porsche enthusiasts, but at the end of the day if it were upto them Porsche would have never progressed from the 356 and would have gone bust decades ago. The newer machines are awsome cars and can mix it up with Supercar exotica twice their price and power and leave them with a bloody nose.

 

[Fen]

A chap I knew through my RS6 bought one to replace his RS6. He pretty much described it as similar in a straight line but much better in corners, which is probably what you'd expect.

So, too much for the road? Ultimately I got a bit bored of the RS6 not because it wasn't fun, but because to have fun with it you had to be so far into the realms of losing your license instantly that you probably wouldn't need one as you'd be inside. Realistically it isn't that much faster than the more rapid of the lesser cars on the road at legal speeds and having to keep a lid on it all the time was a bit frustrating to me. In fact my RS6 experience has changed my view on cars such that I'm not actually interested in outright speed the way I used to be. Sure I'd like to experience or even own something truly ridiculously powerful (and 400bhp, especially with 4wd, is nowhere near) but I'd want to drag race it if I had something in that category as it's too much to enjoy on the road in my view.

In terms of the 996 I'm one of the Luddites Scott describes in that I don't like the model. I guess the Turbo and GT3 are the variants that might be exceptions to that to a degree, but the base vehicle is ugly, bland and not a true 911 in my eyes. Contrary to the suggestion that they should never have progressed beyond the 356 my actual reason for disliking them is that they were a marketing progression not a technical one. A sell-out in other words. Porsche should be about buidling the best affordable sportscars and not caring if they march to the beat of a different drum. As it is the 996 was a prime example of trying to cash in on the heritage of the real 911 with a product that was not a technical improvement. Perhaps the 997 is better (it looks better which is a big help), but really if the "911" cleared the decks for the Cayman to be all it could/should be then that would be Porsche back on the right track in my book.

Last thing to consider - do you really want to sink what is still serious wedge into a car who's value is "dropping like a stone"? I'd suggest waiting to see where the stone lands and then buying into it if you want to have one.

 

[u63af]

Funny that this topic came up. My mate just bought a 996 tt for £27k. He collected it yesterday. It is really quick and seems a lot of car for the money. Surely they cant lose much more value?

 

[wibble]

I have not driven one, but I met a chap at the Ace last night who had owned one. On the same line as Fen's RS6, he said it was too quick for British roads. He traded it for cracking looking 911 RS replica plus cash and has no regrets. However, prices are in free fall at the moment.

 

[pauly]

Is it a case of buying one and then running it are 2 different prospects though ?.

 

[Neil Haughey]

Well I can't afford to buy a 996TT even at 26K without getting a loan, but I could afford a 911 at half that. The thing is like Fen says I believe one needs to think very clearly why you would buy the thing. It is a super-fast road car at the end of the day not a race car or specifically a track car. A guy I know well who I will not identify, admitted to me that he enjoyed driving his old torsion bar 911 more then the 997 he traded up to. I have asked a few guys in the more wealthy 911 circles and a very clear piece of advice I got from one guy was I would be better of spending the money on track days or racing. Maybe getting a 996TT is a bit of a fantasy scratch to itch. It could be great for a year or 2 if one has the confidence that you could sell it on without loosing loads of money. The problem is I don't have this confidence, several year old hyper cars seem to be going rapidly out of fashion at the moment, just look at the free fall in values of cars like the M5/M6/E55 since this is really the market sector the 996TT occupies.

The most enjoyable experience I have had in my S2 is sharing track time with you guys. The most enjoyable experience I have had in Stephanies MX-5 was roof down driving through winding Devon and Cornwall roads on the one good week of weather we had last year in May. I find blasting along motorways or A roads to be utterly boring, thus since the 996TT doesn't fit any of my positive motoring experiences particularilly well, it is not really the car for me. (If someone wants to lend me one for a month I won't say no though!).

 

[DavidL]

I think the speeds these cars are capable of and possibly more importantly how quickly you get there is the crux of it.
I hit unmentionable speed yesterday morning when just exercising the boost through 2 gears - it didn't feel that quick so imagine the trouble you could get into with a 996TT. I think Fen's experiences with the RS6 are just as valid - the performance capabilities are similarish.
If you drop your sights down the range then a 3.6 996 runs 325bhp. Yes they may seem good value currently (doesn't everything?) but a lightly tweaked 944T will be there or there abouts and if the car is lighter (I don't know) then the difference is less still. At which point I think save your money and keep what you have.
Personally I don't have an issue with the 911 range changes and oddly I like the 996 shape but definitely not the 993 shape - too slopey at the front. I accept I may be in the minority here! Hey ho.
So it seems you can have too much of a good thing. Ah well the first alternative is cheaper.

 

[sawood12]

Well I think Neil has hit on a good point. The guy I mentioned earlier was taking it gingerly round Donington for that very reason - he didn't want to stack it in the tyre wall as he paid £60k for his back when 996TT's were commanding top dollar. Having said that his is the X50 model and does have a genuine Ruf body kit.

I see Fen's point as well, I agree the modern cars don't have that same soul and character than the earler cars had (though has any - I don't believe Ferrari has retained the soul of the earlier cars that made the brand) though I think the points made about the modern cars being no more than a cynical marketting excercise are a bit harsh. Yes the marketeers clearly had a larger part to play than in any previous model - but at the time Porsche were facing going under so they needed to break into the big time - no more messing around with the family firm - it was survive or die time. And it worked. But I also think that the 996 did move things on. It was quicker and better handling than the 993, asthetically it is a bit boring though.

I really do hope that the Cayman doesn't take over the 911 mantle. As good a car as it is, the last thing the sportscar world needs is yet another mid-engined car to join the ranks of the ever growing sea of them. How boring. There are many benefits to the rear engined layout which is why the 911 works - balance isn't the be all and end all - and I hope Porsche do continue to develop it such that it remains the top dog. Maybe they can develop the Cayman to compete with all the other Hypercars (like a productionised Carrera GT sort of thing) leaving the 911 as the connisours choice for an all round and very capable giant killer sports car. This way the 911 can remain top dog (the new GT2 laps the Nordschlieff quicker than a CGT) and the Cayman can be the car for the show-off's and cruisers like Lambo's, Zonda's and R8's are.

 

[Lancerlot]

It's a brilliant piece of kit, mate.
Start saving the pennies - you won't regret it - and don't forget, you only come this way once! []
Regards,
Clive

 

[wjk_glynn]

On the subject of power, I recently drove a C6 Z06. It has the 7-liter 505-hp motor and its weight-to-power ratio is 6.2-lbs/hp (a US-spec 996TT is 8.2-lbs/hp). I was vaguely disappointed for an odd reason. Now don't get me wrong, it is HUGELY powerful and gives a sense of immense grip (note that I didn't get anywhere near exploring its performance envelope on the drive). But... and I never thought I'd ever say this... but there is such a thing as too much power (for the street), at least for me.

When I was on the test drive, we were on a local highway for bits of it. I'd slow down to 50-ish to allow the traffic in front pull away and then I'd floor it. There was an instant roar, the outside world goes a bit blurry and you're instantly at 90-mph. Then you're off the gas, glancing in the mirror for CHP. You slow down. You repeat. And after about a half dozen of those, it got boring. The problem is that you have no sense of accelerating because you're at extra-legal speeds so quickly. It's too fast to allow you time to enjoy it.

A few weeks before that, I drove a 2001 Boxster S. Nice car. Handles great. Nowhere near as powerful as the Vette, but at least you got time to enjoy its acceleration and it was just more fun.

Now I do think the Z06 would make an outstanding track car where you can explore its limits (if you take your brave pills). But on the street, I think its too powerful.

I'd love to drive a 996TT and see if I get the same impression...

Karl.

 

[Fen]

That's a very good description of what I felt in the RS6, Karl. I had some immense fun in that car, and I also did some of the most illegal things I have ever done behind the wheel in it. The problem was that far too often the two coincided.

 

[zcacogp]

Interesting ... threads like this reinforce a personal theory that performance is not the ultimate quest of car enthusiasts. Any car can be quick, but there will always be a quicker car to compare it with. And, as has been pointed out, you can rapidly get to the stage where a car can be impractically quick - for either local laws or other road users.

My theory is that the ultimate goal has to be fun. Enjoyment. Pleasure to drive. Something that feels fast may be fun for a while, but it's not a lasting thrill.

I happen to think that the way forward is known to the Caterham/Westfield drivers of this world. Not very powerful (most of them, although there are exceptions.) However they are light, which more than makes up for it (see other thread going at the moment.) But the big bonus of such lightweight tea-trays is that they are magnificent fun to drive. You get out grinning like a rock-ape. Not because they are outrageously fast, more because they are a hoot to drive, every time, at any speed.

I am sure that a 996TT is fun to drive, but is it fun at road-legal speeds? Sounds like it probably isn't, which is why people end up driving them faster.


Oli.

 

[333pg333]

I'm not sure how I feel about the 996tt. I have been on the track against a couple in the last few months and aspects of them were amazing and others not so. Even though they don't share the same engine as the na/ version (that is in fact an outright Lemon and more will be heard about that in the future) I would bear in mind the costs of rebuilding the motor if you ever have to. Quite likely more expensive than your current car is worth so just be careful what you wish for. The 4wd electronic frippery is incredible to watch at work from behind. Notice here how out of shape this guy gets yet the car just keeps travelling forwards. I found myself mesmerized at times. Apparently this one has 500hp according to the young owner. I'm doubtful, but he leaves me in a pool of ineffectual noise off the line. lol I'm only in the 2.5L with some Vitesse parts so I doubt they would present too much trouble to a well modified 951.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=JygHyzK4ZKc
ps let it download and fastforward to about 1.45 secs.

 

[944Turbo]

I spent many laps behind a blue turbo at Silverstone there was very little in it - though I may have had stickier tyres - I was very impressed with the way it didn't disappear into a cloud of scrap when it ran out of road on the bend on the start finish straight - he drifted wide and had two wheels well on the grass and recovered cleanly at 3 figure speeds - very impressive. However I can't help feeling I was having more fun most of the time. I was less impressed with the evo 8 that got between us and then spun off in the complex before the start finish straight, the 4wd was obviously of benefit for getting out of the gravel [&:]

How much are 996 GT2's now ? They did drop fast initially but then developed a bit of a following (I think someone found some suspension settings that worked) and went back up.

Tony

 

[Lancerlot]

ORIGINAL: Fen

In terms of the 996 I'm one of the Luddites Scott describes in that I don't like the model. I guess the Turbo and GT are the variants that might be exceptions to that to a degree, but the base vehicle is ugly, bland and not a true 911 in my eyes. Contrary to the suggestion that they should never have progressed beyond the 356 my actual reason for disliking them is that they were a marketing progression not a technical one. A sell-out in other words. Porsche should be about building the best affordable sport scars and not caring if they march to the beat of a different drum. As it is the 996 was a prime example of trying to cash in on the heritage of the real 911 with a product that was not a technical improvement.

ORIGINAL: scoop
I am sure that a TY is fun to drive, but is it fun at road-legal speeds? Sounds like it probably isn't, which is why people end up driving them faster.
Oil.

As I seem to be the only poster on this thread that's actually driven one, let me help you.

I had one for 2 years - it was a lovely car and a serious piece of kit. I got as big a thrill driving it for the last time as I did the first time - that's the reason you can justify paying for that privilege.

Previously, I have owned and driven just about every 911 version and 996tt was the best up to that point.

Ignore all the drivel about not being a proper Porsche etc. etc ad nausium [:'(]. It was an evolution, a big step forward in 911 development - and none the worse for that![]

If you can afford it, 997's better still, but if not, then 996tt is a top car and currently available at a budget price.

Regards
Clive

 

[TTM]

I personally find increasingly difficult to feed fantasies over modern performance cars without pondering factors related to the driving environment.
A powerful and heavy GT such as a Porsche or Audi Turbo will be great fun on a derestricted & empty Autobahn.
At the other end of the performance car spectrum, a Caterfield used on the track every other weekend may certainly be difficult to beat for fun.

So, without intending to sound like the boring factual bloke obsessed with the technical solution serving the function, may I suggest you to find an actual need, even a merely extremely subjective one, for such a stupidly fast car.
That said if you are wealthy enough to afford much more expensive machinery then if such a toy car doesn't bring you much more satisfaction over your current one it probably won't matter to you much.