Advice?

[DivineE]

Ok so I just got my car back from its re-spray. It was fine when it got there and then as I mentioned before it wouldn't start when I went to pick it up.

An auto electrician narrowed the fault down to the MSD ignition box and the box was sent off to the US for repair. They did this and posted it back saying that it was probably down to corrosion that it had failed. Me and the bodyshop guy split the cost 50/50 as it was working fine when I dropped it off so legally he should give it back working, but could have been extreme bad luck on the timing from an issue that was going to happen anyway..

Well he dropped the car back home with the repaired box fitted and when tried the car ran briefly on two cylinders and then failed and wouldn't re-start. He said it ran fine when he tried it?! So what do I do now? Phone him, phone the guys in America or bite the bullet and buy a new box myself putting the rest down to experience?! (not an option I'm favourable on but the car has to be moved to a new garage in two weeks because the house its at is sold)

What would people do and does anyone have any legal knowledge of what I can/cant expect from the various parties?

Regards,

Ben

 

[DavidL]

Is there a way of checking the ignition box is functioning properly?

If not its back to the US for a proper fix. If it is then sadly its something else which means more fault finding. Whatever the fault is was then either misdiagnosed in the first place, is a result of the box going down or is something else entirely.

Either way if the box is working I would imagine there are too many options to be chasing someone else for responsibility.

Damn annoying when it was running fine before everything started.

 

[sawood12]

Sorry to hear you're having problems but you should be wary in linking the problem to the garage simply on the basis it was running fine before they had it. I'd say it is important to keep a cool head and if you are going to implicate the garage in the cause then make sure you have based that on sound evidence - i.e. you still need to troubleshoot the cause of the problem and only once you've done that can you look to link it to their work.

Afteral, it is not uncommon for cars that have been off the road for a time while extensive work has been done on them to have niggly problems getting running again. Hopefully with a bit more troubleshooting you'll find the problem.

Good luck.

 

[peanut]

when you say' ignition box' what do you mean exactly ?

Are you referring to the ignition amplifier which receives pulses from the ECU and provides the HT spark to the coil ?

A picture of the part would be useful for positive identification.

is this the part ?

 

[Frenchy]

Peanut,
It is a non standard, stand alone ignition module that Ben is mentioning, his car is highly modified, the igniyion system is nothing like you have seen on a 944 before.

 

[peanut]

would have been helpful to mention that in the first post [] saying that, whatever it is it still has to deliver a spark and fuel delivery so essentially it will operate in the same way and require the same sensors etc.

Presumably you have seen this troubleshoot guide Ben
http://www.msdignition.com/page.aspx?id=3206

 

[DivineE]

Many thanks guys and I don't mean to persecute the garage at all. Just stating facts and wondering my position. Fortunately when the auto electrician went through the car I was there and he checked pretty much everything else the car would need to run before making a decision on the box. The box is receiving all the right signals and supplies. Sensors were all working correctly etc. I will check again just to be certain but I'm sure everything else is working fine.

I also for my own peace of mind checked for any mechanical symptoms while the car was running on 2 cylinders but the engine amazingly sounded as smooth as silk under the bonet except that it wouldn't rev properly. You could only hear the missing at the exhaust end. Also no sign of any smoke of pressurisation to suggest water in the cylinders from a seeping gasket etc (didn't even burn a single drop of oil when starting for the first time in 4 weeks )

 

[J.C944TurboMan]

You said your car went in for paint , did they do any welding on the car using a Mig welder ? Just that if they do not disconnect the battery this can course damage to the ECU's

Have you checked the airfilter incase it is full of over spray and restricting the airflow , just a thought .

Did you make a note of the mileage before it went into the body shop ? Just you hear of horror storeys of 944 Tubos getting abused by test pilots when they are in for repairs !!

Best of luck with your quest to resolve this fault J.C

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

Afteral, it is not uncommon for cars that have been off the road for a time while extensive work has been done on them to have niggly problems getting running again. Hopefully with a bit more troubleshooting you'll find the problem.

Good luck.

Tell me about it. My race car cut out 1/2 hour into the race at Silverstone then last weekend at Snett I got about 1/2 dozen banker orienteering laps in and the thing cut out again. After getting it going it was randomly dropping down onto 3 cylinders, probably the same when it was going on track as it was gutless on the straights. After a lot of tests it was concluded that the engine wiring loom is toast.

Given how old our cars are and the under bonnet temps I am surprised more cars haven't suffered from toasted engine wiring.

 

[944 man]

Further to what Neil has stated above; looking under the bonnet whilst the engine is running (or trying to run) in a dark garage can be illuminating...

 

[Neil Haughey]

Yup, I had a breakdown in my 968 which probably wasn't caused by the brittle ignition leads but the result all the same was 2 melted leads one bad enough to leave a chunk of melted rubber in the plug well. I bet that bugger was arcing good and proper.

 

[333pg333]

Ben, sorry to hear of the ign problems. I'm sure they'll get sorted pretty soon. Did you manage to get any nice pics of the new bodywork at all?

 

[944Turbo]

MSD box is towards front of the engine bay.

http://www.cannell.co.uk/images/Cannell_web/944T%2082%205.jpg

In response to the query, guess you need to find what's wrong with it before appointing blame, frustrating especially when you are some distance from the car,
Tony

 

[Hilux]

Further to what Neil has stated above; looking under the bonnet whilst the engine is running (or trying to run) in a dark garage can be illuminating...

So true.

If I was stripping and rebuilding a 944 completely I`d fit a new engine loom with Emerald or MBE type standalone with 3D mapping.

Having said that............I didnt to save costs and now cant get the Golf to start having stripped the Mk 3 looms and tested all 50 million wires back to the ECU for condition, continuity and resistance on the bench before fitting them [&o]

Ho hum................here comes a weekend with the multi -tester [8|]

 

[barks944]

Looks like the unit would get a lot of vibration mounted where it is?

 

[DivineE]

Yes that box in front of the engine and no sorry wasn't much in the mood for taking pics of the body after I discovered the running issues. I will try turning over the engine with the lights off to see if I can see any unwanted sparks but I would be very surprised as she ran like a dream before the MSD box failed. It is extremely limiting that the car is so far away as I'm back in Plymouth again now till Christmas but hoping to give it a bit more attention when I'm next home.

Regards,

Ben

 

[barks944]

Do you think the box has failed again or that there is some new issue now?

Edit: Read first post later . Clearly you still think its the MSD box.

Just had a read of the manual as I might get one for my project and it says not to mount it on the engine? Is it isolated from the vibration/heat properly?

 

[DivineE]

ORIGINAL: barks944

Do you think the box has failed again or that there is some new issue now?

Edit: Read first post later . Clearly you still think its the MSD box.

Just had a read of the manual as I might get one for my project and it says not to mount it on the engine? Is it isolated from the vibration/heat properly?

Hmmm not at all but if you want to take mine apart, copy the design to make one for your car. Then whilst your in there see if a component has failed and fix it for me I'd be very happy to oblige and pay you a small fee. Finding someone here who can assess if the unit is definitely to blame and fix it would save me a great deal of hassle.

As for its location its not ideal, the hot/cold/hot nature of the engine bay has apparently increased the corrosion but it has worked fine there for years, there's no way it should have failed again after 2weeks! I think something wasn't fixed correctly or another part was damaged in the process of fixing it. Their repair to the box definitely cured the not running because it did start afterwards where it was totally dead before but it ran on less than four cylinders for 5 mins (got me round the block) and then failed again whilst idling in my driveway.

 

[peanut]

have you read these threads ?
http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=700319
http://www.msdignition.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3996

Apparently there have been a lot of sudden failures with the Dis4 plus units. MSD technical support doesn't exactly inspire confidence either.
From what I read the Dis4 Plus unit's main advantage is a stronger spark above 6000rpm . If your car isn't making that kind of rpm you might be better off exchanging it with the plain Dis4 unit which is apparently bomb proof.

 

[barks944]

ORIGINAL: DivineE

ORIGINAL: barks944

Do you think the box has failed again or that there is some new issue now?

Edit: Read first post later . Clearly you still think its the MSD box.

Just had a read of the manual as I might get one for my project and it says not to mount it on the engine? Is it isolated from the vibration/heat properly?

Hmmm not at all but if you want to take mine apart, copy the design to make one for your car. Then whilst your in there see if a component has failed and fix it for me I'd be very happy to oblige and pay you a small fee. Finding someone here who can assess if the unit is definitely to blame and fix it would save me a great deal of hassle.

As for its location its not ideal, the hot/cold/hot nature of the engine bay has apparently increased the corrosion but it has worked fine there for years, there's no way it should have failed again after 2weeks! I think something wasn't fixed correctly or another part was damaged in the process of fixing it. Their repair to the box definitely cured the not running because it did start afterwards where it was totally dead before but it ran on less than four cylinders for 5 mins (got me round the block) and then failed again whilst idling in my driveway.

If you were willing to lend me the unit I would certainly be interested. It would allow me to develop the interface between my DME and a more advanced ignition system and test the unit at the same time. I will have to look into the unit a bit more to see if I can build a wasted spark interface with it but I suspect its feasible.

My suggestion with regards to the mounting of the unit would be to attach a bracket onto the bonnet catch. This would isolate the unit from the engine vibration. Even if it wasn't vibration that killed it this time it certainly wont be doing the unit any good.