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Am I ever going to find a perfect 964?

NormalNorm

NormalNorm

New member
Hello guys!

As mentioned on the odd thread on 964 post topics. I am new to the 964 model, and have fancied one of these, but never brave enough to buy and own one. Well, the time has come!

The question is, are there perfect example ones out there for sale? and am I being too fussy on my endless search?

Having been on this forum for a while, I have read and browsed on here quietly, and must say I have found very useful.
Reading the flaws on this particular model, I found on my adventure a lot of these 964s have the same symtoms obviously due to age of these cars, with bodywork, engine leaks, wear and tear etc. The following has been found:-

As for the bodywork, I have tried to find one with perfect body with O.E paint, no scratches, stonechips, dents, rust, or if painted with perfect match, and if anal inperfections in the paint ie sand marks, silicon-'fish eyes' etc.

Body trim, ie rubbers, seals replaced due to age and them turning brittle. Hindges rusting, window rubber seals,etc.

Lights and lens turning milky, filled with water, or dirty from condensation.

Engine- rebuild or not with full history and leaks.

Interior- Seats and leather cracking and wearing.

If I was to find one all done above done, what sort of top money would I be paying? even if it means a high mileage car with good history but fully restored bodywork inc. all new seals, rubbers,lights/lens+retrim interior+new wear and tear things ie suspension, wheels and tires,etc.

Im going Bonkers![:mad:]

P.s great seeing cars like Brksy16 doing good with his car. Inspirational!
 
I think you're looking for the Holy Grail - and you'll never find it. There is no such thing as a perfect 964 - after a minimum of 14 years and as many as 20 even a 964 that has NEVER been used will have issues all of it's own. Many of the cars I've seen - and I've seen plenty - are in generally good condition but you'll always find something that could be improved.

In my opinion, finding the perfect 964 would make it as dull as ditchwater. The joy of these cars is getting it there - to your own taste and satisfaction. Even if you find a perfect car - and it was for sale - what would you do with it?? Look at it??

Just as an example, over this past weekend I saw a 1994 Turbo S Flachbau which had been cossetted all of it's life amassing a mileage of only 10,000 miles. Valued certainly considerably more than £100,000 and I found some serious issues with it in seconds. Fixable, certainly but perfect, no.

Good luck with your search - I think you'll need it.

Regards

Dave
 
Unless you get a museum car which has also been used regularly etc, and had all the rubber seals, strips etc changed you won't find one. Even an unused car will have brittle rubber after 15-20 years. As for stone chips well they can't be avoided if you use the car, and Porsche's should be used to stop other problems (seized electricals, leaking air conditioning, unpolished bearings in the engine, water in the oil, and so on)!

That said the litany of milky headlights, water ingress, and so on you have seen suggests you are a little unlucky and probably looking at the lower end of the market. Also as you have spotted, any car - even a Porsche - that sits on the outside a lot in the UK will have rust. The galvanization does start to reduce over time as it fights the normal metal-to-rust conversion.

But there are some very nice cars out there, and one reason I am selling my C4 at the top end of the market - apart for stone chips I don't have the rest of what you have seen!

Good luck with your hunting. There are some really nice cars out there - look for ones that have been worked on over the years with wear&tear items changed etc, ex concours cars, and those cars that have no sat on the outside most of their lives.
 
I too don't think there is a perfect car out there but of those for sale at the moment Alex's is pretty close and well worth a look IMO.

Cracking leather on the seats is the least of your worries because they can be refurbished at a very reasonable price.

Good luck with the search [:)]
 
Thanks guys for the reply!

Yes as Dave said its like finding the Holy Grail, like anything else really no matter if its a Porsche or in my case a nice VW.

Anyway, just come on for a quickie! Who has any pics of Alexanders car???? Just PMd you Alex, but im sure you boys all have photos!

Anyway....off to work...check you all after work, midnite[;)]
 
Probably better to save money by buying a high mileage car that has had a lot of money spent on it, then use the money saved to get it to where you want. Interestingly the regular flow of air around the body work tends to often result in high mileage cars having less rust issues the those sat around in damp garages. Certainly the rust on my 944 S2 only appeared after a winter sat in a cold damp garage. I wish I had been driving the thing instead now.
 
Maybe you guys are right, my expectations are high and as Dave Wilkinson the car is built for not only looking, drive the dam thing and get it through the years of owning her and getting her to how you want it!

I must say Neil hit it on the head with looking for a more expensive car with more work done and condition, than to go through the process yourself. As ive learnt in the showscene, to get a car either concours if not show worthy, it cost a far lot more money than its worth when selling. Is it?

Anyway......after all this, your right the fun is getting the car mechanically and cosmetically A1 in my own time and way! Otherwise ownership experience would be boring right!



 
Goodevening guys!

Today, I went to view a 1992 964 C4 that has had a huge amount of work done cosmetically and you could say mechanically.

Lets just say the car was like brand new exterior wise. The following things as listed:-

1.Glass out, doors, bumpers etc off full respray.
2. Newly replaced RS Bumpers front and rear.
3. All glass rubbers and seals from skirts,bumpers,etc all replaced.
4.Exterior trim such as doorhandles, wipers, even down to washer jets replaced,new badges front and back.And new inner arch liners and trim.
5.All new rear and front lights and lens replaced.
6.RS rear glass replaced from original Carrera glass with wipers.
7.Interior retrim, front and back inc doorcards and rear parcel made.and new doorsill plastics changed
8.KW clubsport coilovers with camber,damping and height adj, new uprated Eibach anti rollbars.
9.New lightweight 18" BBS E28 Magnesium wheels with new Yoko tires.
10.new backbox with decat.
11. New carpet on front boot.
12.New brake disks and pads with Calipers refurblished.
13.New radio.


Full service history from Specialist and Porsche, just spent £2k service, covered 148k miles with no rebuild, no leaks still strong. Not that its a problem because of the work thats done but has 12 owners.

Now for you guys to figure out, how much would you say this car is worth? As I am scratching my head thinking how much the car is worth, it was said he has spent £10k on restoring a mint car to start with!.
 
ORIGINAL: NormalNorm

Goodevening guys!

Today, I went to view a 1992 964 C4 that has had a huge amount of work done cosmetically and you could say mechanically.

Lets just say the car was like brand new exterior wise. The following things as listed:-

1.Glass out, doors, bumpers etc off full respray.
2. Newly replaced RS Bumpers front and rear.
3. All glass rubbers and seals from skirts,bumpers,etc all replaced.
4.Exterior trim such as doorhandles, wipers, even down to washer jets replaced,new badges front and back.And new inner arch liners and trim.
5.All new rear and front lights and lens replaced.
6.RS rear glass replaced from original Carrera glass with wipers.
7.Interior retrim, front and back inc doorcards and rear parcel made.and new doorsill plastics changed
8.KW clubsport coilovers with camber,damping and height adj, new uprated Eibach anti rollbars.
9.New lightweight 18" BBS E28 Magnesium wheels with new Yoko tires.
10.new backbox with decat.
11. New carpet on front boot.
12.New brake disks and pads with Calipers refurblished.
13.New radio.


Full service history from Specialist and Porsche, just spent £2k service, covered 148k miles with no rebuild, no leaks still strong. Not that its a problem because of the work thats done but has 12 owners.

Now for you guys to figure out, how much would you say this car is worth? As I am scratching my head thinking how much the car is worth, it was said he has spent £10k on restoring a mint car to start with!.
Click to expand...

Why on earth was all that work done? It seems totally out of proportion to the value of the car and might lead me to investigate its provenance a little further. If it's straight (literally and metaphorically) then it could be a bargain but no more than £13000/14000 at the most and probably less as it will need the motor doing at some point. The wheels are too big too but the necessary work may have been done. The number of owner is irrelevant but the service history/file isn't. Many people will be horrified at 12 owners but if everyone of them has spent whatever was needed whenever it was needed, then fine but that must be checked out. At this point I remain cynical. Also, I am puzzled why you started off talking about authenticity and originality and are now considering what appears to be as far removed from original as possible.
 
Its an odd mix . All this work on cosmetic and you say the motor is original at 145K ....I can't believe it something doesn't add up tp me .

I would budget for a motor full engine rebuild. £5-9K in any case.

Personally I work the other way round . Buy a sold car that needs a tidy, fix the mechanical parts them do the cosmetic bits.

In my eyes from your list ...its been messed with and I wouldn't touch it as the body has taken precedent to the mechanical parts, which are far more expensive to fix then a spray job !!!...;-)

Just because it has a stamp in the book doesn't mean its had all the work need to run this cars in A1 mechanical symphony.. PS: I can stamp a book and so can a lot of other people for few ££'s

Walk away..
 
I don't think there is a hard and fast rule as to when (what mileage) these cars should have a rebuild but even with all the cosmetic work, the mileage will be a factor that determines its price (even though many of us say 'buy on condition'.Having the suspension re-freshed is a plus point though I've not heard before that you can get Eibach ARBs (it's normally OEM bars, RS bars or H&R bars over here).

All things considered I'd go back to pricing it on the mileage and the fact that it's not had the engine refreshed so I'd agree agree with the £13,000 estimates above.
 
Have you looked on Pistonheads? Have a look at this ad: http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/697173.htm Looks like it is worth having a look. The description and the pictures (look at the plastic floor cover over the mats) suggest it has been looked after. I would ask about the windshield replacement and ask if he was watching it being installed as some of the glass fitters are careless and scrape away the pain in the process of removing/installing the glass and will eventually lead to rust without you seeing that it is rusting until the bubbles appear from around the windshield frame.

Harry
 
Richard, I know where your coming from with the extent of the work, and why? Ive know the guy for a while now, and all I can say is he is a bit of a perfectionist, and wants his car perfect, with the advantage that he owns a bodyshop and does everything himself at his own time. Hence rebuilding or restoring a car to this level, yes of course you'd think the car may have had an accident, due to the extensive work.

He comes from the Aircool VW scene, and restores very rare Beetles and Camper vans for show and the concour scene. He told me the history of the car is mechanically A1, and has been maintained to whatever it needed, backed up not only by the stamps in the book (as Iangray100 mentioned) with huge amounts of receipts, and expensive bills.

Also yes I was talking about originality, but did I say light mods was a bad thing? and no its not far from removed originality as possible.
 
ORIGINAL: brksy16

I don't think there is a hard and fast rule as to when (what mileage) these cars should have a rebuild but even with all the cosmetic work, the mileage will be a factor that determines its price (even though many of us say 'buy on condition'.Having the suspension re-freshed is a plus point though I've not heard before that you can get Eibach ARBs (it's normally OEM bars, RS bars or H&R bars over here).

All things considered I'd go back to pricing it on the mileage and the fact that it's not had the engine refreshed so I'd agree agree with the £13,000 estimates above.
Click to expand...

Yes sorry H&R not Eibach[:)]
 
ORIGINAL: harry

Have you looked on Pistonheads? Have a look at this ad: http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/697173.htm Looks like it is worth having a look. The description and the pictures (look at the plastic floor cover over the mats) suggest it has been looked after. I would ask about the windshield replacement and ask if he was watching it being installed as some of the glass fitters are careless and scrape away the pain in the process of removing/installing the glass and will eventually lead to rust without you seeing that it is rusting until the bubbles appear from around the windshield frame.

Harry
Click to expand...

Yes, thanks Harry, a friend of mine viewed it last week in Bristol. The car had 3 owners and it had covered 60 odd thousand miles. If you think the car I mentioned earlier is suspicious due to huge amounts of work, I think you shud check this one.
Low miles doesnt mean its a good one, in fact I walked away, not because of the cost as I would have paid for it if everything was as described.
1. the Front bumper was changed and resprayed.
2. the front panel and wheel bay has been professionally replaced, due to hitting a boulder?
3. the rear quarter has had paint.
4. from the service history cant remember full but there was note of something to do with 're-jiggin'?
5. the windshield and glass replacement may have been caused by something linked to the above mentioned!
6.he mentioned that the car was Zymol from time to time, but looking at the bodywork, it was full of swirls and hairline scratches.

So you guys think about this one.
 
ORIGINAL: RichardLW



'The wheels are too big too but the necessary work may have been done.'
Click to expand...

Big wheels are each to their own taste, and if your puzzled with me talking about originality and then light modifications.

Please refer to this, as my friend( the one who I mentioned above has restored his 964 to an extreme) has refered me to this as his inspiration. Hope you like!

http://www.ap-car-design.de

then go to Fotogalleries

then go to projekte

then 01.2008

And check all the other 964s
 
18" wheels need a slight modification to the car to work properly on 964s as they were never thus equipped (except maybe the 3.8RS and the Turbo S). I agree that wheels are very much a matter of personal taste however and non-standard wheels would never put me off buying a car unless they were horribly wrong. As everyone else has said, buy on condition - if its a nice car with a good history and the price is right, buy it but remember that the modifications will count against it unless you find a like minded buyer when you come to sell, so don't pay over the odds for it.

I have spoken to AP about some lightweight wheels for my car and I am quite familiar with their product range and all the cars on their site look pretty good - if I still had my 964 I would certainly be interested in going that way when it came time to freshen it up big time.


 
Norm, I think Richard was pointing out that the 964 running gear was never approved for 18 inch wheels. I believe it was only the late 964 RSR that was. However, many people have 18s on their 964s with no problems.

Were you trying to trick us up by initially missing out the bit about you knowing the owner who has his own bodyshop? [;)]
 
I'm not sure where you are in the country but perhaps instead of running round looking at private cars and then posting comments, you should try Rolly at http://www.eporsch.co.uk/0101for_sale.htm for the 964 range etc. And spend your money wisely on an "honest car" with him etc. You also have some comeback then if something doesn't follow true .

My car from there 3 years ago ...I could tell it was a "sold car origianl" that ran today but had potential to be tided- not modified!!, so I cut a deal that it came without "long term warranty" , only the statuary one month and saved over £1.5K in doing so . Insurance is spreading the risk, you take it or leave it ..I therefore had £1.5K to sort the car ASAP from day one onwards ..works for me I do it with all my cars like this...

PS : Since then I've sent approx £10K over 3 years on the car - rebuilt engine , suspension, brakes and now the body work tidy ...its called a hobby that I drive. Considering a "normal" car depreciates at approx £3K-£3.5K plus a year, this car is still worth what I paid then, I don't see this as an issue, as its bettering the car and keeping it on the road ....I also do 10K and year in the 964 as part of job so it has to work for it living.

Driving the car and not spending money on it is the "crime", as they are getting older and reaching high mileage its coming more expensive in parts to keep them on the road etc, some cars are becoming more "ropey" because of this. Porsche are great at supplying what they supply in old car parts, but every day something gets discontinuing for the 964 . Every time I ring OPC its something else now.......and the price go's up to .
 
You should contact Jeff Forsyth in Aberdeenshire to see if his car is still for sale.

He was heading off abroad for a few years. I think it was a Polar Silver 964 C2, I've heard independantly it was one of the very best. He'd an asking price of 18k at the time.

Jeffery Forsyth Home: 01467624465 Mobile: 079177 34252 e-mail jjpsf@hotmail.com
 
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