Anyone converterd 944 to LPG

[pauljmcnulty]

I believe that the preferential tax rate referred to is on the fuel.

Exactly. I thought the tax on LPG FUEL was preferential, and that it was a fixed time for it to be "reviewed". I'd suggest that, when that happens, it'll got up to a price where it's a waste of money to install a system. If that statutory period is years away, then fine. Does anyone know?

Safety-wise, I'm with John here to a degree. It's a real issue. But, there are bad professional fitters out there and I can't see a well-experienced amateur not being capable. You don't say where you are, Graham, but I'd suggest talking to one of the guys who have done this directly. Tref's Dorset Region organiser so take a trip to their Club night.

 

[g.wass]

John
Point taken. Your intention are good.
Bout 35 years back before LPG was common on autos I had a Land Rover. I made all the bits to convert to LPG using A Gas reulator and converting to demand valve . Modified the carb fitting a demand jet. All hit and miss but worked . Cold days the LPG froze as no heated demand valve. But point is I am not new to LPG plus the system I would use is the Gas burner type that requires very little in the way of sophisticated test gear unlike the injection type. I had all the info but its lost as usual. Thats why I am asking for info now.
Regards Graham

 

[944 man]

I had a 15,000 mile 1979 Volvo 340 which was built with a Landi Hartog LPG system. Unfortunately when Ford bought Volvo they ended their 'foolish' keep old cars going policy and deleted all of the spare parts: meaning it died for the sake of a couple of perished parts... ( The car was brilliant and I really enjoyed driving everywhere slowly, listening to R4 on LW.

 

[g.wass]

A real Pipe and Slippers car[]

I see you have a 2.7 944. is it much quicker off the mark than the 2.5?
Graham

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: 944 man

ORIGINAL: sawood12

The preferential tax rate on LPG cars doesn't amount to anything more than a token gesture. It is only a handful of pounds currently so the only way you can recoup your installation costs is through the savings in fuel costs.

I believe that the preferential tax rate referred to is on the fuel. []

Yes, I know that, but there is a reduction on road tax and my thinking was that you could avoid the hike in road tax on large capacity engines by going LPG, but the road tax reduction is only about a tenner a year, so you are left to recoup your costs by the savings in fuel costs alone, which I calculated to take at least 2 to 3 years. The disadvantages outweigh the advantages unless you do super high milage and don't need the boot space and don't mind more frequent stops at the petrol station.

 

[944 man]

My father gave it to me. He bought it because something about it appealed to him and he used it to drive to the golf club every morning.

This was the first 2.7 that Id ever driven (and the first series two car Ive owned for years) and I was expecting it to be noticeably torquier. It doesnt seem to be as quick as my last car, which was a late series one; but I suspect that this was due to the early car being substantially lightened.

 

[235tonyw]

Hi,

I've read most of the threads surrounding your original enquiry some of which I to was concerned about until I read your latter replies! No I haven't had a 944 converted but I have worked for Calor gas for 20yrs had 6 lpg company cars over that time and have been self employed gas engineer since 2003. So knowing that 1 ltr of propane leaked will give 900 cu ft of flammable gas I do become concerned of DIY conversions on a public road!
Given that you have LPG experiance (not sure if later Marine craft were liquid injection systems) I would suggest that you need to identify the make of the kit you intend using contact the uk distributor and find out 1. if that kit is suitable for 4 cyl 944? 2. What additional items you'll need to make it up to a full kit for the 944 including the electronics which interface & overide the petrol system when running on gas? A good port of call is Autogas 2000 at Thirsk they are probable the oldest established LPG convertors in the country if they haven't converted a 944 I'd be surprised they've been converting for 30 odd years! They use Tartarini kits.Not all makers kits suit every car certainly more recently many convertors have opted to use a broad church of kits rather than be tied to a single francise as in the past! Look on the LPGA web site & LPG forums as these all tend to have feed back on conversion issues which effect certain models/engines. As for your quoted Jaguar conversion generally Jags convert well so it's either a poor convertor or a poor engine or a bit of booth? Good convertors will compression test each cylinder before starting & check which is the best kit for that engine not just that model as engines can vary in a model range depending on model/year & in the case of injection systems who made that? Also try www.jaymicsystems .co.uk As for gas tanks I think the only suitable location would be bolted bown in the boot behind the rear seats size would be defined by the width & height available. I had my wife's 95 Vitara 1.6 gas converted 10 years ago & it's still going well best value car we've ever owned, normal servicing consumables, 1 new battery, 2 starter motors & 1 exhaust system in 10 yrs & 70k.
My best advice is if your kit not suitable find the nearest convertor who sells/installs the most suitable kit for a 944 (web search to establish) contact them find out if you buy the kit from them ( 33 to 50% of total cost) & install yourself (tell them your credentials) will they inspect & certify for a fee? You save the labour cost but have the most suitable new kit for the job? If you haven't installed liquid LPG systems the don't even start - it's a different ball game from vapour!

 

[g.wass]

Many thanks Tony for sound sensible advice and the information.
Regards Graham

 

[ChasR]

As above I'd happily buy a car that's been converted by a half decent "amauter"(you can get them certified (I have for years on the cars I've converted)), over a specialist. My last Mondeo 2.0 MkIII did 400k on LPG with no issues bar the guides starting to wear in the head (still for those miles not a bad feat). I shouldn't have broken that car over the Diff dying in hindsight with the way secondhand car values have gone... Again, the other two cars I admit seemed to have been fine too (one is still in our household).

Conversely, a converted car I bought converted by a very reputable East Midlands gas specialist has been a pain. Another engine, many of the hoses changed (they were bodged and hacked about with quite crudely, and with half of the benefits of a sequential system not utilised (I.E a lack of temp sensor in the LPG side, something I noticed when I aquired the software), and I have gone back to checking readily converted cars with a pinch of salt (although I have to admit it does seem to be ok now).

Another specialist down south I would trust would be Jaymic Autogas.

Like Simon the clean burning appeals to me (the oil seems to stay much cleaner on LPG than when ran on petrol) in addition to other things (LPG does not wash oil off the bores like petrol does, whilst this can protect the engine better it can be a pain on cars which you wish to run in.

 

[vince944red]

Guys
LPG is no more complicated than petrol. If you are ok around petrol bits of a car, gas is NO different
LPG is Not complicated it just replicates most of the petrol bits and needs a bit of plumbing and wiring.
I am anti certification ideas because this is a route to migrating expertise to 'trained' people who charge a lot with varying competence. But there is a legal requirement for certification you can't escape. I think Wheeler dealers did a land rover DIY and took it and had it certified for £80 IIRC.

There is a world of difference between a garage fit ( 2k++) and a DIY for £400 + a tank. This changes completely the economics and recovery time of cash spent out if you do over a certain mileage per year - you need to do that calculation for your circumstances!!

Its a sad fact that adding LPG does not increase the value of the car at all and may actually decrease it as many do not understand the benefits or need it. Petro just reached 122 litre at my local garage

There's a very good LPG forum (Google it)

 

[sawood12]

I disagree i'm afraid Vince (I assume that's your name). Pressurised gas systems are different unpressurised petrol systems and need to be approached with extra caution. Petrol leaks are easy to spot by a DIY'er, gas leaks are not. Also gas mixes instantaneously with air and is immediately flammable and therefore is much more dangerous - especially since the gas system is under pressure to keep it in the liquid state - a small leak of liquid gas leads to a relatively large amount of flammable gas due to its compression, and it would be a constant leak rather than an occasional drip, so you are talking about a hell of alot more gas resulting from a leak. Petrol has to evaporate before it can ignite therefore is more robust to ignition from a poor DIY job. One of my previous cars had a petrol leak I didn't know about for god knows how long as it was spotted at an MOT. The leak was a drip every 10 seconds or so right onto the exhaust manifold. Now i'm sure that it would have ignited at some point if left un-attended to, but the fact was it had been leaking for some time with no ignition. If that was gas leaking under the bonnet it almost certainly would have ignited if leaking, if not from the hot manifold from sparks from the electrical system.

There are alot of macho DIY'ers out there who think they can do a better job than professionals, and in most cases they can. But sometimes specialist knowledge and experience is required. I know specialist knowledge is now available and free on the internet, but how does a DIY mechanic know when and where specialist knowledge is required? I certainly wouldn't buy an LPG converted car that had been carried out by a DIY'er. For a start you have no come-back if something went wrong. At least if the conversion is traceable back to a an authorised person then you have more options open to you if something was to go wrong in the event it was found to be due to dodgy workmanship.

This isn't like a cylinder head gasket job - it is not just a case of satisfying yourself that the job has been done properly by turning the key and if nothing goes bang, you're good to go for another 100k miles. The risks with a gas conversion live with you constantly. A dodgy gas connection may be good for years of use and lull you into a false sense of security, but all the time it is an error waiting to rear it's head and bite you.

Maybe i'm a bit risk averse when it comes to things like this and maybe it is due to the conservatism I experience in industry when it comes to fuel systems, but I see no reason why the extra safety measures and requirements for specialist training observed in industry around things like this shouldn't be observed by individuals turning spanners on their own cars, central heating systems or anything else.

 

[g.wass]

You are right about LPG and safety. I worked for 30 years in the marine trade on all kinds of craft from naval through to pleasure craft and all in between. Untill legislation was brought in to control LPG on marine craft many a boat has gone skyward due to very bad LPG systems. A lot of it is common sense and also correct use of tools and equipment. When you break it down though an expert is only a DIYer with training. Bottom line is common sense. But so called experts. I have seen many of thier bodged jobs during my years and seen the end results.
Graham

 

[ChasR]

Alot of scaremongering IMO is being sent out.

Regarding higher pressures, have you seen the pressures that modern Dervs go to. They knock the 'high' LPG pressures into a cocked hat. And leaks are easy to spot (and smell for that matter). Some Gas leak spray or even for a number of people fairy liquid in water will suffice most of the time with leaks becoming very apparent. LPG tanks are also double skinned, not something you'd see on most other tanks (or pipes for that matter).

I do believe legislation is required for the testing of cars, but I do think a more independant body is required than the installers themselves. There are lots of people with a vast amount of knowledge but also quite a few cowboys as with any industry. Most of the scaremongering has come from the dealers who IMO have made the LPG business far too much of a 'protectionist' industry.

LPG unlike petrol also is heavier than air, hence the leaks tend to go towards the ground first. They do need checking over now and again.

Maybe I have just seen too many 'specialists' that I wouldn't trust even if they swore they were telling the truth.

 

[vince944red]

Nicely said ChasR ! Could not agree more - LPG never taken off in this country, cross the channel and every other car is converted and you've put yur finger on the reasons why ......

 

[944Turbo]

A thought occurred to me, if you were to remove the ptrol tank would there be space for a reasonably sized LPG tank underneath? You could then have a small petrol tank inside - you would no pretty quickly if that was leaking. obviously both would want to be well sealed and protected.

Tony

 

[dazcee]

Having not read the entire post, but trying to give you a quick answer on the tank issue, I would suggest a donut tank in the spare wheel well and a can of tyre weld to replace it, this will leave no visable sign of a tank in the car. I have had many cars converted to lpg over the past 12 years and seen a massive improvement over the years in the technology, although most have been fitted to big yanky V8's. However my wife has a system on her 4 cylinder car with a donut in the boot in the tyre well. Looking at my 944 you could probably fit a 70 litre tank allowing for 20% less for air giving you 60 odd litres. New system are extremely reliable and theres no better feeling than filling up for £30.00 at the pump but you need to find out what the system is and get some advice from a certified fitter, some vapourisers cannot cope with demand. I noticed earlier in the post someone mensioned about a jag not running right, a mate of mine has an S type converted and these need a lube dosing system and runs perfectly. After my first install I swore never to have another because of problems but now after 7 conversions would never be without it on my daily driver (Dodge Magnum with a 5.7 HEMI 12 mpg). Sorry if this is a ramble but just saw the post when shutting the computer down and thought i'd give you my 2 pence worth.