Audi RS2 Engine 944?

[sawood12]

I am only sure about the 5cyl engines and the 4.2v8 as there is a guy at work who is nuts about anything Audi and is a walking database of alsorts of useless facts. His hobby is scouring ebay buying up old cars and parts and building hybrid parts. He told me with good authority that the gearbox in the RS2's was based on an S2 and shared the same casing - obviously the innards were different due to the 4wd, so the 5cyl engine bolts right up, and he has just transplanted a 4.2v8 out of an A8 into an Audi 80 Quattro who's gearbox also shares the same casing as an S2 gearbox. Now i'm not sure if the S2 gearbox will bolt up directly to the back of an S2 engine so the two ends of the torque tube could be different meaning an engine from the Audi stable might not bolt right up.

Not sure about the V6 but with a v6 being shorter than the striaght 4 there should be plenty of room to incorporate an adaptor plate.

I agree that a V6 makes more sense in a 944. I'd hate to put a yank engine in a 944. Just feels wrong somehow.

 

[carreraboy]

Same family Audi/VW so not such sacrilage ..... makes a lot of sense to me with modern engine technology if someone is replacing an engine ...

 

[PSH]

I agree that a V6 makes more sense in a 944

This idea was played with by Porsche in the 944 developement stage but was dropped as it was cheaper to use the 928 V8 as a basis rather than creat an entirely new engine.

Personally I think it's sacrilage to put any engine other than what was intended into a 944. Having said that one of my son's friends built and owns a very well known bright yellow 924 V8 with NOS.. to say this thing is fast is like saying a new 911 turbo is slow... get my drift?....hehe


Pete

PS : here's a link to the monster in action on a typical night at the Ace Cafe... hmm that is other than a Porsche night.. those guys are far to conservative.... guess that's me too....[8D][8D]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buvGeXOiv9s

this one shows that it has a wee bit too much torque for the rollers..lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1shrjIwlmoE&feature=related

 

[333pg333]

I think most of us shudder a little when contemplating a V8 transplant....yet.....deep down we, at the very least, suspect it to have merit. To be honest it's got a lot of merit. Communicating with some that have done this to their cars and their enthusiasm is infectious. Imagine if Porsche did something like one of those new BMW V8s that rev out to 8k rpm in a modern version of our cars. Ouch that would be brilliant.

 

[zcacogp]

Patrick,

I'll admit - I was dead set against the V8 conversion on a 944, but the more I think about it the more I like it. I'd dearly love to see one in the flesh (/tin), and to be able to afford the parts to be able to contemplate one. (I'd also need a workshop to do it in and a whole load of time, which makes three reasons why I won't be trying it out.)

One of these days someone on here is going to cook one of those things up. And it will truly be a sight to behold. Another way of looking at it would be to see it as a very good way of getting a 944 with a ruined engine back on the road. Something like Iain's S, for instance (see this thread here:

http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=486281 )

Hmmmm. That's got me thinking. Always dangerous ...


Oli.

 

[ikillcopiers]

This idea was played with by Porsche in the 944 developement stage but was dropped as it was cheaper to use the 928 V8 as a basis rather than creat an entirely new engine.

They did think about it indeed - little article with Freund here.

And the gearbox is extremely similar to the Audi design, in fact, it pretty much is one.
Guy who is rebuilding my Turbo S box says it pretty much is a quattro box, just missing an output.
He's done a few of those before, I reckon he might know!

I also remember reading on a US forum (think it was one of the Hybrid sites?)
that a couple of guys had popped the Torsen diffs from the quattros
into 944 boxes, instead of paying full pony for (and sourcing ) a Porsche LSD.

The real question is how handy the Porsche bell housing will bolt up to the Audi engine.
I have a sneaky suspicion it could be relatively straight forward, but then again,
we all know what assumptions are the mother of!

 

[sawood12]

I agree that a V6 makes more sense in a 944

This idea was played with by Porsche in the 944 developement stage but was dropped as it was cheaper to use the 928 V8 as a basis rather than creat an entirely new engine.


[/quote]

I don't believe this notion that a 944 engine is half a 928 v8 engine. It is no more half a 928 v8 than half any other v8. If you compare a 928 v8 and 944 engine out of the the engine bay and side by side on pallets, and I have, they look nothing like each other, the 944 block is a completely different casting and bears no resemblance to either bank of the 928 v8. It is a completely and utterly different engine that shares no commonality. The reason the 944 engine is canted over at an angle is to allow for a low swooping bonnet line, if you rotated the engine round to the vertical position then you'd need one mother of a bonnet bulge to clear the cam box. I've read quite a few Porsche articles on this subject and not one suggests that the reason they chose a straight 4 was to gain manufacturing efficiencies or commonality with the 928.

I think the 944 chassis would suit a more compact and lighter engine than a v8 - a modern direct injection blown engine with some weight taken out of the chassis rump to maintain balance would yeild much nicer results I think. High revs are over-rated - they lead to peaky and inflexible engines. Most high revving engines i've driven (Honda VTec and Toyota VVTi's) have roughly the same usefull rev range than any other car because below about 5 or 6krpm he engines are guttless and useless and when you red line the car and go up a gear they drop to about the 5 or 6k rpm mark anyway, so the bottom 5krpm's are useless anyway and only good for low speed high economy cruising.

In fact while we're on the subject of hybrids I quite like the idea of a nice light nimble 924 with a 300bhp ish tuned VAG 2 ltr turbo engine in it. I reckon something like that could show up some very very tasty machinery on a trackday. Might be a nice little project for someone who's trading in their 944 turbo for a people carrier!! (no must resist!!)

 

[PSH]

I don't believe this notion that a 944 engine is half a 928 v8 engine. It is no more half a 928 v8 than half any other v8

Hmmm Scott I didn't say it was half of the 928 V8, I said the V8 was used as a bassis for the straight four. There are many components on the 944 engine that come from the 928 but more to the point both engines were made on the same prodution line using very similar tooling . Of course the block is not literally a half of the V8 but as i said many parts are similar as porsche couldn't afford to make an all new production line. The two engines are far closer than you may think.

Pete

 

[sawood12]

There has been an 'urban myth' ever since i've been on the forum that the 944 engine is somehow a 928v8 chopped in half, the implication being that the 944's engine choice was compromised to suit manufacturing cost savings - this is not the case. The parts they share may be small items such as nuts and bolts, but in terms of con rods, pistons and any other significant part that would bring significant cost savings they are completely different engines that share very little commonality in terms of parts count. The 944 has balance shafts for example, which is not exaclty a bolt on accessory or a design afterthought and needs to be incorporated at the fundamental design level, and items like the water pumps and oil pumps are different between the engines. In fact a quick look at the PET shows that only a handful of misc items share 944 part numbers - washers, nuts, bolts - the most significant part with a 944 part number is a 1st oversize valve seat ring. The only thing they seem to share is the generic design of the Alusil bores and water jacket - which is not surprising, especially since this was Porsches first steps into the world of water cooled engines, and will also be the same with other manufacturers generic engine designs.

I just hate to hear phrases like 'a 944 engine is just half a 928 v8', it simply isn't true other than 4 is half of 8. I think this has stemmed from the fact the 944 engine is canted over at an angle and some halfwit somewhere made some silly assumption that has somehow stuck. If you remember the VW engine in the 924 was also canted over at an angle to allow for the low bonnet line and that certainly shares no DNA with the 928v8. This is one of my pet hate 944 myths as you may have gathered!

 

[333pg333]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

Patrick,

I'll admit - I was dead set against the V8 conversion on a 944, but the more I think about it the more I like it. I'd dearly love to see one in the flesh (/tin), and to be able to afford the parts to be able to contemplate one. (I'd also need a workshop to do it in and a whole load of time, which makes three reasons why I won't be trying it out.)

One of these days someone on here is going to cook one of those things up. And it will truly be a sight to behold. Another way of looking at it would be to see it as a very good way of getting a 944 with a ruined engine back on the road. Something like Iain's S, for instance (see this thread here:

http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=486281 )

Hmmmm. That's got me thinking. Always dangerous ...


Oli.

Oli

I believe the problem is fitting one with our RHD system vs the LHD ones in the US. I'm not saying it can't be done but it might take a bit of customisation to do it. The advantage of this is that the reliability of the V8 and it's ancillaries would appear to be greater than our system....that and gobfulls of tq!

 

[333pg333]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

There has been an 'urban myth' ever since i've been on the forum that the 944 engine is somehow a 928v8 chopped in half, the implication being that the 944's engine choice was compromised to suit manufacturing cost savings - this is not the case. The parts they share may be small items such as nuts and bolts, but in terms of con rods, pistons and any other significant part that would bring significant cost savings they are completely different engines that share very little commonality in terms of parts count. The 944 has balance shafts for example, which is not exaclty a bolt on accessory or a design afterthought and needs to be incorporated at the fundamental design level, and items like the water pumps and oil pumps are different between the engines. In fact a quick look at the PET shows that only a handful of misc items share 944 part numbers - washers, nuts, bolts - the most significant part with a 944 part number is a 1st oversize valve seat ring. The only thing they seem to share is the generic design of the Alusil bores and water jacket - which is not surprising, especially since this was Porsches first steps into the world of water cooled engines, and will also be the same with other manufacturers generic engine designs.

I just hate to hear phrases like 'a 944 engine is just half a 928 v8', it simply isn't true other than 4 is half of 8. I think this has stemmed from the fact the 944 engine is canted over at an angle and some halfwit somewhere made some silly assumption that has somehow stuck. If you remember the VW engine in the 924 was also canted over at an angle to allow for the low bonnet line and that certainly shares no DNA with the 928v8. This is one of my pet hate 944 myths as you may have gathered!

Scott,

That's not quite true. There are quite a few parts that are interchangeable starting with the heads. In the workshop where my car seems to favour, they have a few 928 heads spare and often theorize about doing a 16v conversion. I'm not saying it's 100% interchangeable but not too far off. However a 928 motor won't fit into a standard 944 engine bay. You would need to completely tube frame the front end. Not sure on the dimensions of a Cayenne donk though?

 

[333pg333]

ORIGINAL: ikillcopiers

This idea was played with by Porsche in the 944 developement stage but was dropped as it was cheaper to use the 928 V8 as a basis rather than creat an entirely new engine.

They did think about it indeed - little article with Freund here.

And the gearbox is extremely similar to the Audi design, in fact, it pretty much is one.
Guy who is rebuilding my Turbo S box says it pretty much is a quattro box, just missing an output.
He's done a few of those before, I reckon he might know!

I also remember reading on a US forum (think it was one of the Hybrid sites?)
that a couple of guys had popped the Torsen diffs from the quattros
into 944 boxes, instead of paying full pony for (and sourcing ) a Porsche LSD.

The real question is how handy the Porsche bell housing will bolt up to the Audi engine.
I have a sneaky suspicion it could be relatively straight forward, but then again,
we all know what assumptions are the mother of!

That's an interesting article. I had not read that before, thanks for posting that. See what he says about
16v heads. The only problem with that thinking is that back in the day, 247bhp was considered a lot. There are a number of 16v racecars in the US and I know these guys wouldn't go back to an 8v even though the 8v can make double that stock power figure.

As for bolting up various transmissions, you can get an adapter plate made up as well which wouldn't be too difficult. I had this all lined up for my GT2 tranny trackcar project but the G.E.C. poured water on that fire. []

 

[Copperman05]

My 944 book by Peter Morgan certainly seems to indicate the 944 engine is derived from the larger V8 in the 928. Apparently they share the same cylinder bore sizes enabling them to use the same tooling and machinery thereby saving costs. I think the head is also very similar and has many interchangable parts. So it would appear there is more to it than just a myth...

Just my 2 pence worth...

Edd

 

[PSH]

There has been an 'urban myth' ever since i've been on the forum that the 944 engine is somehow a 928v8 chopped in half, the implication being that the 944's engine choice was compromised to suit manufacturing cost savings - this is not the case. The parts they share may be small items such as nuts and bolts, but in terms of con rods, pistons and any other significant part that would bring significant cost savings they are completely different engines that share very little commonality in terms of parts count. The 944 has balance shafts for example, which is not exaclty a bolt on accessory or a design afterthought and needs to be incorporated at the fundamental design level, and items like the water pumps and oil pumps are different between the engines. In fact a quick look at the PET shows that only a handful of misc items share 944 part numbers - washers, nuts, bolts - the most significant part with a 944 part number is a 1st oversize valve seat ring. The only thing they seem to share is the generic design of the Alusil bores and water jacket - which is not surprising, especially since this was Porsches first steps into the world of water cooled engines, and will also be the same with other manufacturers generic engine designs.

I just hate to hear phrases like 'a 944 engine is just half a 928 v8', it simply isn't true other than 4 is half of 8. I think this has stemmed from the fact the 944 engine is canted over at an angle and some halfwit somewhere made some silly assumption that has somehow stuck. If you remember the VW engine in the 924 was also canted over at an angle to allow for the low bonnet line and that certainly shares no DNA with the 928v8. This is one of my pet hate 944 myths as you may have gathered!

Sorry to disagree with you Scott but that's not entirely correct, there are many if not hundreds of parts on the 944 engine that come directly from the 928, in fact they are so close they could be brothers.

To name but a few..

exhaust valves , intake valves , camcover seals( 16v), rod bearings , rod nuts , camshaft seals , valve springs , hydraulic lifters , wrist pin bushings,Gasket for Water Hose Flange on Cylinder Head,valve stem seals... I mean the list goes on and on. As I said they were made on the same machines and in some cases using the same toolings , hell even the balance shaft flange seal is from the 928. Porsche used as much as was humanly possible from the 928 and when they had to be different they were designed as to be so close as to be made from the same tooling/machinary which is why the two engines could be made on the same production line.

[]

Pete

 

[Copperman05]

Yes this is correct, according to the Morgan book the 944 and the 928 even shared the exact same stroke and bore spacing, but the actual bore of the 944 was not used in the 928 until the later 928 S4.

Edd

 

[944Turbo]

Had a look at an RS4 engine today - was still in the (very smart) RS4 and I didn't have my 944 or a tape measure with me. The plumbing would need messing with and it would probably need standalone (complicated electronics matching ecus to keys etc), It didn't look like it wouldnt physically fit but, hard to tell without having the two cars side by side. This one had dynoed at 415Bhp standard, apparently over 500 is possible with standard turbos. As standard will achieve 30 mpg, would imagine a Yank V8 might struggle to match that. They are rare though, apparently a few had failed due to cam wear and replacement engines were hard to come by.
Tony

 

[PSH]

That is correct Edd.. we read the same books mate , I have about 6 books on the 944 and just about all the road tests written. We are very lucky people to own such a wonderful machine, some would say the best ever designed/built by Porsche , having driven many powerful machines including Ferrari's I would have to agree.
I have a number of friends who once owned 944's only to then upgrade to a 911 , prob is once they had done that only then did they realise what a mistake they had made and as for comparing a 944 turbo to any other model... no contest.[]


Pete

 

[PSH]

Had a look at an RS4 engine today - was still in the (very smart) RS4 and I didn't have my 944 or a tape measure with me. The plumbing would need messing with and it would probably need standalone (complicated electronics matching ecus to keys etc), It didn't look like it wouldnt physically fit but, hard to tell without having the two cars side by side. This one had dynoed at 415Bhp standard, apparently over 500 is possible with standard turbos. As standard will achieve 30 mpg, would imagine a Yank V8 might struggle to match that. They are rare though, apparently a few had failed due to cam wear and replacement engines were hard to come by.
Tony

I think the biggest hurdle to get over Tony would be the low slung bonnet of the 944, there's not a lot of space between the bonnet and the ground...[]

Look forward to seeing you on Saturday mate, it's a year this month since we were down in Bournemouth for the dyno last year.


Pete

 

[333pg333]

Depending on the sump arrangement of the alternative motors. I know our sumps are pretty deep and if you go to a dry sump system on a 944, you can lower the motor by quite a few inches. Not sure how this could be utilised in fitting an Audi motor but where there is a will there is a way. One thing I really don't like are those modified bonnets to allow for larger or upright motors. That really makes the car look too American.
Having said all this, I'm sure I've seen pictures of a 944 with a 6 cylinder Porsche engine in the front. It was really weird looking but someone did it and apparently it was pretty damn quick.

 

[333pg333]

Oh, just to show that nothing is impossible. Here's a 928 motor in a 944 race car. Nothing stock about the frame, but it can be done.