been to look at an s2, but have a question..

[j4mou]

I have been to look an 1990 s2 today, it was exceptionally clean and had clearly been cared for.

However when I checked the header tank for any creamy substance there was indeed a slimey white sludge on top of the water, there wasnt loads but it was there, the seller explained it had been like this all the time he had owned the car (since 2001) and put it down to condensation and lack of use. he had done on average 2000 miles a year.

is what he is saying factual or is the head on its way out?

cheers in advance [&:]

 

[DavidL]

Certainly some deposit in the filler tube is normal, this is condensation reacting with the oil not coolant.
I would be a little concerned about oil in the water - although I think this is less likely than water in the oil as the oil system runs at a high pressure than the coolant (I think!).
If it isn't used much then I suppose a certain amount of "slime" might accumulate on the inside of the header tank.
If the CHG has gone then there would be other signs - overheating, white steam/smoke from the exhaust, but you'd have spotted that.
If in doubt I suppose it would be sensible for a garage to check whatever it is they check - exhaust gas makeup? I gather it is fairly definitive of a failed or failing CHG.
HTH

 

[j4mou]

I think a pressure test is the usual way they go about it. it had very low mileage, but as I say it had this slime in the top of the header tank and some on the cap. can anyone else add anything? im just considering making an offer on it.

 

[Big Dave]

It could be a concern. BUT it might also be that the car needs a REALY good run. They dont seem to like being stood around . They like to be used + regularly...
If its the right price, + if its a low miler and in GREAT nick, then its worth a punt....
If you when + if you do buy it and the residue doesnt go away, try putting some Kalimex K seal in the header tank.
http://www.kalimex.co.uk/section.html?secpath=01.04.&pgid=17
Ive heard it works WONDERS... Its NOT a quick fix either. Its the real deal....

 

[Fen]

Dave W's right - if the froth is under the oil cap. In this case you're saying it's under the water cap though, yes?

DavidL has his logic a wee bit wrong in that the oil system runs the higher pressure so if there is any communication between oil and water then you see oil in the water.

Logically how would condensation through lack of use affect a system filled with essentially water? The car has a problem which could be one of many things, the obvious one being head gasket failure but it could also be elsewhere. My Audi 80 that I ran as a smoker when I had my RS6 did it and it was a failed oil cooler (the oil being cooled by water Luxes have the potential for same issue and Turbo's don't - I honestly don't know if the S2 does or not, but I suspect it does.

Fixing the issue is not a big deal (unless it's head gasket), and I did it on my Audi. What I hadn't appreciated is that oil is corrosive to the rubber used in the cooling system. I just gave it a basic flush and thought "it's an old snotter and I know the problem is fixed so I don't care if there's scum in the coolant. Well for the last week before I left the UK and passed the Audi on to its new owner it started bursting coolant pipes; 2 in 3 days and a letter from the AA saying I wasn't covered for another one on that car. The ones that came off were very soft and were basically dissolving.

I don't know how long there was oil in the coolant - I noticed it soon after buying the car but not when buying it so I'd suggest maybe only 7 months at most, and I wouldn't have trusted the thing again until all the rubber coolant hoses had been replaced and the system had been flushed and flushed and flushed again.

So, if there is oil in the coolant and it has been like that for some time you need to fix the cause and I'd suggest replace all the rubber hoses in the cooling system as well as flush it to death. That is not a reason to pass the car by, but it could be expensive so it's something you need to take into account.

With a low mileage covered be very picky about history; it's 12,000 miles or 12 months and it should be serviced annually regardless of how little it gets driven. Standing around isn't great for any car and if anything the 944 is worse than average for it.

Have the belts been changed within the last 3 years? Has the car had its cams replaced (I'm guessing not, and just the chain doesn't count in my book)? In fact I'd guess they haven't even been checked from your description of the owner, so you need to allow for the cost of new ones in your offer. Again not a reason not to buy the car, but I think it sounds like it's going to be worth less than the owner will sell it to you for if you are going to be sure that it isn't going to stand you in at way more than it's worth before it's in a trustworthy condition. It could easily be hiding comfortably north of £2k in bills at realistic indie prices with the above and we haven't got to brakes and fuel lines yet.

 

[Fen]

Just an additional thought:

The car has been looked after
The current owner has had it for 7 years
The coolant has always had a scum on it

Something wrong with the above 3 statements? I'd say. The coolant hasn't been changed since before 2001!

Does looking after it just mean washing and waxing to this guy?

Edited to add I'm not down on it, I'm just asking the hard questions to make sure your next move is made with your eyes open.

 

[j4mou]

the cam belt and tensioners and clutch have been changed in the last 2 years, the car has had a full pro respray in the last year, there is some service history but very little before he purchased the car in 2001. I suppose it could be he hasnt changed the coolant?? he seemed quite keen and his reason for selling was he has purchased a 944 s2 cab.

 

[DavidL]

ORIGINAL: Fen


DavidL has his logic a wee bit wrong in that the oil system runs the higher pressure so if there is any communication between oil and water then you see oil in the water.

I stand corrected, but of course this does make more sense as the more pressurised sytem will inflict on the other hence oil in the water.
Cheers Fen

 

[Big Dave]

Ok, A new day, and a new thought....
The oil problem could be the seals on the oil cooler, if they go it can cause oil to get into the water system. Its not a difficult job to do, just fiddly...Any good indie will know what to do..
The respray "worries" me. Why was it resprayed.?? Accident, corrosion, if so where..??? CHECK the sills and ask about them aswell, otherwise if the "tin worm" comes through from inside to out, then your in for a big bill.££££££££££££££.
Its good its had a clutch, they can be £££££££££.
What colour is it.??? That can affect the value, And how much is it up for.??? And how many miles has it on.??? All these points help "us" to help you....

 

[j4mou]

he said the reason for the respray was because its red and it had gone pink on the roof area, looks like its had a good spray job. I checked the inside of the sills throught the inspection holes in the door shuts, its dry as a bone not a glimpse of brown or rust. its up at £2500 and the mileage is 89k.

cheers

james

 

[pauljmcnulty]

ORIGINAL: j4mou

he said the reason for the respray was because its red and it had gone pink on the roof area, looks like its had a good spray job. I checked the inside of the sills throught the inspection holes in the door shuts, its dry as a bone not a glimpse of brown or rust. its up at £2500 and the mileage is 89k.

cheers

james

I've not seen the car, so it might be a complete dog, but.....[8|]

An S2. Belts and clutch done, respray that you say looks good, low miles, history?, sound bodywork, might need a head gasket that'll cost about £600-£800 tops.

£2.5k.

Can you put the guy's number on here? []

 

[j4mou]

just hpid it, its a cat c. what does that do to the value?

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

I've not seen the car, so it might be a complete dog, but.....[8|]

An S2. Belts and clutch done, respray that you say looks good, low miles, history?, sound bodywork, might need a head gasket that'll cost about £600-£800 tops.

£2.5k.

Can you put the guy's number on here? []

Brake lines
Fuel lines
Camshaft sprockets and chain
Effects of oil in the water for 7 years
Plate lift
Could be porous or cracked head rather than a gasket or cooler seals.

Needs further investigation if you ask me.

 

[DavidL]

ORIGINAL: j4mou

just hpid it, its a cat c. what does that do to the value?

I'd say it makes the price about right in the current market sadly.
My only concern with CatCD is what happens if you need to make a total claim?
An insurance company has already paid out in full so will it happen again?

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: j4mou

just hpid it, its a cat c. what does that do to the value?

Clearly a cat C (financial write off) adversely affects value. Was the current owner lying about the paint job? If so is he lying about anything else?

Though having said that the fact it is a cat C shouldn't necessarily put you off as long as you can fully understand what was damaged and if a good job was done to put it right. You need to ask more questions. I'd gladly buy a cat C as long as I could understand what happened. I have a mate at work who buys nothing but cat C's and he's had some fabulous cars for very little money and no problems whatsoever. Sometimes a well repaired cat C can be better than when the car rolled off the prod line.

Best also check your insurance company about insuring a cat C car. So needs some more research, but if I were you my main concern would now be the credability of the current owner. I'd want to see receipts for repair work done and all the belt work. Look to see if they were carried out at decent garages (prefereably recognised Porsche specialists) and don't be too shy to ring the garages and ask their opinions about the car.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

ORIGINAL: j4mou

just hpid it, its a cat c. what does that do to the value?

Well, as others have pointed out, I'd suggest that if the seller knew this and let you HPI it at your cost he's a liar. A cheat, scoundrel, time-waster, need I go on? Pre silly season with all values I'd have said between half and two-thirds normal price for a Cat C, but only if you have documented evidence of the damage and the repair.

Fen listed other potential faults with the car. Of course, they are all valid, but no more than with any S2 for sale. You take the car with the least known problems at the best price.

£2.5k is still a pretty good price if, and it's a big if, the car is a Cat C but otherwise as good as you described? Allowing the usual £1.5k to bring any S2 up to scratch over the first year it could be a good buy, but only if you don't want the hassle of selling it on again soon. If you're planning to keep a car for many years, then a properly repaired lightly-damaged Cat C could be a real steal. My van got swiped in a pub car park today, and I'm sure that what is only a bolt-on wing would be a write-off if I claim on the insurance.

I suppose it's all a case of whether you can trust the seller, is the car a good buy at what is a pretty low price given the description, and above all trust your instincts!

 

[Fen]

That's a good point Scott. Was cat C in existence on 2001? I wasn't familiar with it back then, but it may have existed. Obviously if it didn't then the incident happened during the current owner's tenure.

I was also thinking it strange that it had a pro respray less than a year ago and now it's for sale at a price that can't be more than change on top of what the respray would have cost. In my experience there are people who wil spend large sums on their car and then sell it for a clear loss, but they tend not to be the sort who keep cars for 7 years.

Stuff doesn't ring true on this one somehow:

• Looked after but oil in the coolant for 7 years.
• Low miles and little used but needed a respray.
• Cat C but not mentioned by seller.
• He's only asking £2,500 for a supposedly nice, looked after and fine S2 (he didn't declare Cat C and thinks oil in coolant is just condensation). Why not £4,500?

I'd previously missed the cat C status. I'd say it might be worth £2,500 tops if there is nothing wrong with it, but we know it has oil/water communication at a minimum and there are other areas of expense that could still be in need of attention, primarily the cams.

It's low miles but (even if genuine) any added value is wiped out by being on the register and as several of us have said many times low miles isn't actually a good thing in itself as 944s don't like sitting around.

I don't know how this compares to what else is around, but I'd be seriously looking at walking. If you think you might possibly ever want to sell it on then you really don't need the cat C hassle, unless it comes cheap enough that you can give it away to get out of it without losing much money.

 

[j4mou]

to be fair to the seller he told me that when he bought it, they told him it was stolen recovered but didnt mention a marker, as far as im aware a cat c isnt applied for a vehicle that has been stolen recovered, I stand to be corrected of course though. he has given me the details of who he bought it off and by a twwist of fate I actually know the guy so I will probably get in touch with him if I buy it. I have just made an offer of £2000 for the car via email so I will let you all know the outcome later....

 

[Big Dave]

"[actually know the guy so I will probably get in touch with him if I buy it]".

DONT wait till youve bought it untill you get in touch with you m8.. Do it NOW before you handed over ANY ££££££. You never know whats happened to it....It might actually have been banana shaped..???????????????

It all sounds very fishy to me, But "we" dont know the full story.. Are you telling us the FULL story.????
Why didnt you mention the cat "C" in the first post.???
Personally i wouldnt buy a cat "c" in this financial climate, as if you then need to sell soon, youl be hold of the car for ages. It does put/scare off LOTS of folk...
It took me around 16 ish months to sell my FABULOUS 968 cabrio, and that was a NON cat car....So what a cat C will take to sell is any wonder...Its definately a buyers market... If i was you ide be offering £1500....Harsh i know, but its harsh times we live in.....

Oh and 89K is about right time for new cams + chain.££££££££, plate lift.£££. among other stuff...PLEASE go in with your eyes WIDE open...These cars can and DO cost £££££££££££££ to fix back to former glory....

 

[j4mou]

offer declined, and I wont pay more than that. I didnt mention the cat c, as he said it had been stolen recovered, he didnt mention an insurance marker.

this is the car;

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1989-PORSCHE-944-S2_W0QQitemZ330280877466QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item330280877466&_trkparms=72%3A1301|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12|240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14