biggest bang for my bucks...

[sawood12]

For track performance are you likely to get more benefit from uprated ARB's than from uprated brakes? I'm off to the states with work in a few weeks time and am torn between coming back with a big black upgrate kit or front and rear 968 M030 ARB's with the bushes. This might be my last trip to the states with work for some time as I'm going for a new job which will mean me taking on our European accounts so I want to make sure I spend my money wisely (not that pouring any bucks into the car is necessarily wise).

My aim with my car is to have a street car which looks like a street car but has some track oriented mods to improve it's track performance for those track days I do, hopefully culminating with a trip to the ring.

 

[edh]

Driver training is probably the best investment []

I guess the brakes are going to be much more expensive than arb's - if you need hubs, discs & pads as well.

Have you looked at the Wilwood option - I think there are kits that would bolt on to your hubs?

 

[sawood12]

I would agree with the driver training aspect and on both track days i've done so far i've had tuition so that is a work in progress.

The big black upgrade is definately the more expensive option and would probably cause me some problems when my suitcase is weighed at check-in but the cost of the kit in the states is the same in $ as they are in £ in the UK so i'm looking at saving around £400 for the kit. Sticking with Porsche brakes rather than other aftermarket options keeps my car in line from a visual perspective with only the keen eyed of 944 geeks spotting the larger brakes.

But then again my current brakes are not exactly ineffective so concentrating on upgrading the chassis dynamics might be more worthwhile.

 

[Fen]

I have heard several bad stories from different people about Wilwood brakes. Cheap for a reason is my understanding, basically.

Brakes will be heavy to pack, but physically smaller and with far more money to be saved I'd go with them. If you save £400 on the kit that more than pays for a 968 ARB setup from Exeter OPC. Alternatively you could go for the awsome Weltmeister ARBs - they'd challenge the Big Black kit for weight though as the front mounts especially are very solid.

 

[John Sims]

As you have an 87 Turbo I'd go for brakes. The early Turbo originals are less than brilliant hence Porsche uprating them themselves for the 928S4 brakes on later cars.

The difference between the later brakes and Big Blacks/Reds is less obvious aside the ability to absorb more abuse before the fluid boils.

Also, as you are planning on making a saving, the more you spend the more you will save.

 

[edh]

how about a vitesse MAF kit?

 

[sawood12]

The Vitesse MAF is tempting but i'm from the school of get your suspension and brakes sorted before introducing big power hikes. I've already chipped the car and am probably running a good way past 250bhp now and Porsche saw fit to upgrade the brakes for the 250bhp turbo models (although they didn't for the 968's which were pushing out almost 250bhp) so I think the brakes are probably the better option from a safety point of view. In anycase I can sell my brakes on ebay and recoup a bit more money making even more savings.

Fen - I thought there were no 968M030 ARB's in stock throughout Europe not so long ago. Do you know if they have replenished their stocks?

The plan is once i've uprated the brakes and suspension I'll re-visit my options on engine mods - by which time the car will be a second car and my plaything so it'll be less painful from an insurance perspective.

 

[Fen]

I think Porsche got a batch of front ARBs remanufactured as there was quite a demand for them. Adrian definitely said he could supply them again a few months ago. I think he could do a kit with both bars and the bushes for about £330 all in including delivery.

Remember they could also do a pair of Big Black calipers for £470 including VAT when you're working out how much you can save buying in the US.

 

[Peter Empson]

I fear I'm going against the grain here, but I personaly think the biggest difference you will see on the track would be due to the ARB's, they really do make the car into a much more serious track weapon (albeit at the expense of ride comfort to some extent). With any money left over I'd consider some buying some serious pads for your current calipers (EBS racing used to, and I believe still do, offer Porterfield pads at a very good price). I think if I did the same I'd fill a whole suitcase with them []
I realise this probably won't net you the greatest savings but if I've read the question right combined they should give you the biggest grins on track and the road for a given outlay.
Just my 2 cents worth... []
Best regards,
Peter.

 

[333pg333]

Couldn't you 'just' upgrade to the S4 brakes ala the 250hp car reasonably cheaply and then upgrade your suspension or ARB's all locally for a good price? You could then look at doing an MAF or ball racer turbo or something like that when you go to the U.S.?

 

[lali]

ARB's without a doubt. having bigger brakes doesnt make you faster... if anything you want to be braking less!?

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: lali

ARB's without a doubt. having bigger brakes doesnt make you faster... if anything you want to be braking less!?

And if you removed the brakes completely the reduction in unsprung weight would mean you could go faster still..........but only once.

I would have to suggest that if you are going faster you will be breaking more as, sooner or later, you are going to have to stop.

 

[lali]

but bigger brakes dont mean you can brake later... it just means that you can brake consistantly for a longer period of time because they disapate heat better.
Makes me laugh seeing so many "big red/black" converted cars out there especially those that go no where near a track, and even funnier those that then fit road pads and discs... ??.
I know several "serious" trackdayers who have got 944/968's and run them with standard calipers, the gains are too be made in fluid and pad choice.

 

[Diver944]

I would go with the 968 M030 ARBS too. Flatter cornering is higher on my priorities than being able to stay out all day with massive brakes.

I know that Jon Mitchell can get the officials ARBs at a slightly better price than even Exeter can now as well []

 

[sawood12]

The problem with getting 2nd hand 250 turbo brakes is that by the time i've found a pair and bought everything else I need - disks, pads, mounting brackets etc. i'm not actually saving myself that much money when compared with the big black kit when bought in the states, and i'm left with a pair of old calipers with all the usual potential problems old calipers have eg. caliper plate lift and deteriorated piston seals, so if I decide to go for the brake upgrade it makes much more sense to go for the big blacks. I actually think with my car a brake upgrade is a necessity with the rest of the engine mods i've got planned.

I agree with the sentiments about the ARB's but I don't stand to save as much money from buying from the states so i've got a dilemma on my hands! My first thought was KW suspension but I found that the cost in the states for the kit is roughly the same price as in the UK one you've converted back to £ stirling so no savings to be made there.

I think i'll have to ponder this over the next couple of weeks but thanks all for your input.

 

[Fen]

As I said earlier if you go for ARBs then take a look at Weltmeister ones. They are hugely more substantial and adjustable than the 968 M030 bars which are after all just a standard part designed for fast road use.

 

[Hilux]

I'd consider some buying some serious pads for your current calipers (EBS racing used to, and I believe still do, offer Porterfield pads at a very good price). I think if I did the same I'd fill a whole suitcase with them []

Agreed, never tried them but I did test pilot a seriously quick turbo when I was looking to buy and it had c/d discs etc with Porterfield pads and the brakes were brilliant, easily the best I have driven on a 951. You almost felt the pads and metal through the pedal like my old unservoed kit cars, awesome.

As I said earlier if you go for ARBs then take a look at Weltmeister ones. They are hugely more substantial and adjustable than the 968 M030 bars which are after all just a standard part designed for fast road use.

Yup, if you`ve seriously ragged your car around a track and not noticed the Citroen like body roll then its ARB`s every time followed by new springs/dampers and better brake pads.

I have Mo30 but its only stiffer/lower for fast road and not impressive on track. I have yet to upgrade mine but this winter it`ll be Weltmeister ARB`s, KW suspension and better pads.

ARB's without a doubt. having bigger brakes doesnt make you faster... if anything you want to be braking less!?

Yup but its late braking for a short period that I prefer. Mind you I cooked the front `Textar` pads completely on track but they still worked very very well, only a couple of trouser filling moments []

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: Hilux

Yup but its late braking for a short period that I prefer. Mind you I cooked the front `Textar` pads completely on track but they still worked very very well, only a couple of trouser filling moments []

I've done the same with 250 brakes and boiled AP Racing 551 fluid twice in a day at Snetterton. It is obviously a cross over thing from kit cars. Kits are nice and light and will lock brakes; 951's are nice and heavy and don't.

I set fire to a set of brakes on a Lux around Snetterton []

It's not until you find yourself without brakes that you appreciate how important they are.

I accept that it is down to poor technique on my part as others don't necessarily fry their brakes - like I said, it must be an ex kit thing.

 

[Hilux]

It is obviously a cross over thing from kit cars. Kits are nice and light and will lock brakes; 951's are nice and heavy and don't.

Yup except that with correct calipers and discs also proportioned front to rear correctly mine didnt lock the brakes until the last moment. My Westy was phenominaly (spelling?) good, better than other westy`s IYKWIM. Nearly rear ended some as they braked `early`

I accept that it is down to poor technique on my part as others don't necessarily fry their brakes - like I said, it must be an ex kit thing.

Dunno. The brakes on the 951 are good and the retardation is ok and betters itself as it gains heat as you brake BUT like F1 cars if you have big enough brakes correctly proportioned you `should` be able to stamp on them briefly for massive retardation and feather off as required. This generates lots of heat but for shorter periods and better pads and calipers dissipate that heat quicker.

The westy suffered from some rear brake fade on track as the airflow was not good to the rear sierra calipers [&:] that makes for some interesting moments when all the brakes are at the front and your braking distance doubles.

I feel that ducting to the fronts on a 951 is also a good idea.

Ho hum, cant even get the bl**dy thing out for a run as my garage is blocked in by building materials for our extension [][]


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[Guest]

I'm with Empson, get the ARB's up rated first. On a track day what counts is speed around the bends, wooshing down the straights at mach 3 then braking to a snails pace for a slow dawdle around the corner will make you look like a complete numpty and hold every body else up! Learn to use the brakes you have, which ultimately aren't that bad and spend your money on the ARB's, sticky tyres and driver training.