Biting my nails

[lawsi]

So bad luck comes in threes - had the belts done and cam inspected (no wear) last week and now have the most awful tappety clatter from the cam area has started - it's back at the 'shop - sounds like there's no oil but there is plenty on the stick and good pressure - anyone care to scare/reassure me in advance of the formal disgnosis tomorrow?[>:]

2 days later and no further forward. Started to worry that the oil pressure sender was dead and reading falsely full (on throttle) but figure no pressure would've resulted in much worse/fatal problems as it's been like this since I succumbed.

Tappets now prime suspects but still means no Le Mans run this year []

 

[lawsi]

Help!

Has anyone had to replace the tappets on an S2? Apparently 3 have gone soft which is what is causing the clatter. Car has done 150k & the PSC has suggested that all 16 are changed ...at £1k + VAT[].

Do they really all need doing? Is this a 'reasonable' price?

Feeling a bit sick as the proverbial having just spent similar on belts & various bits & bobs to keep it sound, now have to write off the ferry ticket, race ticket etc etc for le mans too

 

[tref]

Given that it is a belt job as part of their replacement, I guess the labour is the major part of the bill. That being the case, it is hardly worth only replacing three to find that another three need replacing shortly after...

How-ever... was it immediately after the belt change and cam inspection by any chance?

I would usually expect tappets to gradually get worse rather than suddenly go, unless the result of some other "event" - e.g.... an oilway being blocked from debris whilst the engine is open, or being over compressed if the engine is turned over with the wrong valve timing and a valve is pushed up by a piston.

If this were the case, the tappet rattle would be immediately apparent after the work - any interim time, no matter how short, would indicate that you have just been unlucky.

Regards,

Tref.

 

[lawsi]

It started about a day and a half and a fair few miles after I got it back from the belt job so I was a bit 50/50 on this. They (PSC Byfleet) spent the last 2 days looking for any problems they might have caused - blocked oil gulleys etc - I guess predictably they've said they are satisfied it was not a result of the work. Just bad luck then.[]

Half the cost is the parts even with a discount - called around a couple of indy's but this seems to be ball park cost for OEM parts and cam's out labour (unless anyone thinks different?); they've thrown in an oil change & filter which is nice but cold comfort.

I'll probably have to sell the car to cover the costs as had not budgted for £2.5k in first 6 months....[]

 

[Hilux]

There is a one way oil valve that prevents drain down, if its stuck shut then oil will not get to the cam/head.

http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=214739&mpage=1&key=one%2Cway%2Cvalve&#214746

 

[lawsi]

Good point; initial thought & the garage's was lack of oil supply to the cam/head but plenty in there when the cam cover came off after standing overnight. They mentioned the valve as being checked as one of the 'not us' diagnostics; these included the slightly unorthodox running of the engine for a few secs with out cam cover to check oil flow of which there was plenty from all the right places (glad I didn't have to clear that up!)

 

[zcacogp]

If tappets are placed then you should do all 16 at once.

BUT

The same design of tappet is used on 8v and 16v golf engines from about 1984 onwards (although I think the size is different.) And I NEVER heard of anyone replacing them. If they get too 'tappetty' the advice is to use a GOOD flushing oil to clean out the oil system (a seperate thin oil, run for 20 minutes on idle, which is then disposed of before replacing with normal quality oil) to take junk out of the tappets. That usually quietens them down hugely. And always use an additive oil flush every time you do an oil change - I think that PCGB recommend Wynns, but there are many other brands available (cost about a fiver a tin.)

A more aggressive approach is to change the oil and use a mix of 33% used automatic transmission fluid and 66% oil in place of the usual 100% oil, and drive it gently for 1000 miles. Then drain and replace with the usual oil. This has worked well on a number of VW engines I have seen, but I have never heard of it being used on a 944 engine. (No reason why it shouldn't work tho' - the engine tech is very similar.)

Failing that, put up with noisy tappets? Try changing your oil grade? Think about a replacement engine (bound to be cheaper than a bag of sand, even with fitting.)


Oli.

 

[tref]

Hmmm...

Yes, some of the dodges Oli suggests work... Not sure about PCGB recommending Wynns, or anything else for that matter... and am rather cynical about any of their recomendations... which could be more to do with sponsorship deals than quality of product....
Anyway... It is possible to "feel" soft tappets, by compressing them by hand. There are also all sorts of issues about them not refilling with oil properly. If the rest are ok, and a couple are damaged as a result of other problems, then it is ok to just replace the damaged ones. the only real no-no as I understand it is mixing up part-worn ones - they should go back where they came from. I believe the official line is if they become mixed up then to replace with new (there is good engineering reason for this, though admittedly 95% (made up statistic) it will be fine).

One other question... you didn't by any chance have the valve stem oil seals replaced did you? I do have a horror story related to that, which resulted in a nasty tapping sound which sounds like tappets, but isn't...

And sorry Oli, but I have changed the tappets on both a Golf (Mk I GTI) and 944 (2.5 N/A) - Call it the exception that proves the rule - I certainly wouldn't say it is commonly required, even with 200k + miles...

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: tref

And sorry Oli, but I have changed the tappets on both a Golf (Mk I GTI) ....

Tref,

Mk1 GTi had solid tappets which needed adjusting (but no-one ever bothered), not the later hydraulic ones. But then, come to think of it, I have never heard of anyone replacing them either ... ! []

944 - OK!

Interesting stuff you say tho', and helpful. Thanks. Perhaps the "replace them all" rule is a little strict. Certainly there are issues with them filling (or not filling) with oil as they should; I have had a single tappet in a KR 16v engine which was as noisy as you like for about 4000 miles, and suddenly started behaving normally. I hadn't had the money to fix it (otherwise I would probably have spent a fortune diagnosing and fixing it), and concluded (with a friend) that the tappet fill hole must have been blocked by a bit of carbon or similar, which became dislodged over the passage of time.

One other thing worth mentioning (although probably not relevant in this case as the OP has had this properly diagnosed) is that the injectors can be a bit noisy, and they sound quite like tappet rattle. Just because you hear a rattling from the top of your engine don't instantly assume it's tappets.


Oli.

 

[lawsi]

ORIGINAL: tref

Hmmm...

Yes, some of the dodges Oli suggests work... Not sure about PCGB recommending Wynns, or anything else for that matter... and am rather cynical about any of their recomendations... which could be more to do with sponsorship deals than quality of product....
Anyway... It is possible to "feel" soft tappets, by compressing them by hand. There are also all sorts of issues about them not refilling with oil properly. If the rest are ok, and a couple are damaged as a result of other problems, then it is ok to just replace the damaged ones. the only real no-no as I understand it is mixing up part-worn ones - they should go back where they came from. I believe the official line is if they become mixed up then to replace with new (there is good engineering reason for this, though admittedly 95% (made up statistic) it will be fine).

One other question... you didn't by any chance have the valve stem oil seals replaced did you? I do have a horror story related to that, which resulted in a nasty tapping sound which sounds like tappets, but isn't...

And sorry Oli, but I have changed the tappets on both a Golf (Mk I GTI) and 944 (2.5 N/A) - Call it the exception that proves the rule - I certainly wouldn't say it is commonly required, even with 200k + miles...

Thanks for these suggestions - it had a full oil change when I got it (apprecaite this won't flush as you suggest) and apart from very faint single tappety noise for the first couple of minutes while idling after starting, no issue. The later problem was very loud - people would stare - sounded like there was a spanner knocking around in there! Bit knackered now as they've started the work...

I thought about a replacement motor but can't seem to find any sources other than breakers; I was concerened about getting a wrong 'un and the fitting cost?

The car is very tidy bar a small paint bubble on 1 sill & base of 1 f/wing which I'd budgeted to have seen to/replaced next year. Everything works (part from the clock!) and I'd like to keep it; but not if it's going to be money black hole rather than just a money pit[]. I had it PPI'd as the history over the last 2 years was a bit patchy so fingers crossed...

 

[tref]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

ORIGINAL: tref

And sorry Oli, but I have changed the tappets on both a Golf (Mk I GTI) ....

Tref,

Mk1 GTi had solid tappets which needed adjusting (but no-one ever bothered), not the later hydraulic ones. But then, come to think of it, I have never heard of anyone replacing them either ... ! []

One other thing worth mentioning (although probably not relevant in this case as the OP has had this properly diagnosed) is that the injectors can be a bit noisy, and they sound quite like tappet rattle. Just because you hear a rattling from the top of your engine don't instantly assume it's tappets.

Oli.

Yeah you are right - Mk I Golf had those little shims that you can never read the numbers on because some-one has fitted them upside down, and there is always one which is still wrong after fitting what should be the right shim... yep, I was the exception to prove the rule there too, and carefully set up the tappets on my Mk I golfs! Wondering now what it was... that I replaced hydraulic tappets on other than the Porsche... 5 cylinder Audi maybe? I'm just wondering with respect of possible alternative suppliers.

I have come across the injector noise as well... it can indeed sound like a tappet.

OK... tappet noise that is THAT noisy... the one I came across on a 944 at first I though was noisy enough to be big-end rattle, but coming from the wrong place, and half engine speed, was I believe a sticky valve. the reason it taps so is it sticks open until the piston comes back up the bore and smacks it shut. In the particular case I came across incorrect valve stem seals had been fitted and were binding on the inside of the valve springs, but a bent valve could easily have the same affect.

Oli is right on with regards to finding another engine, but rather than just look at breakers, look for accident damaged cars that are still running. This way the provinance of the engine can be proven before purchase, and you know you have all the other expensive little bits that happen to be just slightly different (not that I have ever found that on a Porsche, unless trying to cram in something that is not supposed to fit) are there.

 

[lawsi]

Meant to say I've not had the stem seals replaced so hopefully it's not the valve same problem. Looked at non-OEM parts which would've worked out only a bit less. Only alternative local specialist 2nd opinion was four weeks wait and labour costs to diagnose, so that with costs of a hire car in the meantime....

I'd had a good look for the engine replacement but couldn't find a sensible mileage/documented S2 that runs - I guess I'm also a little nervous of going down this route as I know I don't know enough, if that makes sense.

All the suggestions and advice on alternative problems/solutions are very much appreciated and great knowledge for the future - cheers guys.

 

[dlknight]

My 944S had noisy tappets after I had my head rebuilt following a belt failure. The car ran fine and oil pressure was fine, just an annoying tapping... Does it actually do any harm to carry on driving the car with noisy tappets if the head is still getting a healthy supply of oil?

If you have gone to the expense of getting the job done I wouldn't sell the car, I have gone down that route before and you'll only end up regretting it. I doubt you would recoup the costs so someone would just end up benefitting from the money you have spent getting the car right.

All the best.

Dave K.

 

[lawsi]

ORIGINAL: dlknight

... Does it actually do any harm to carry on driving the car with noisy tappets if the head is still getting a healthy supply of oil?

If you have gone to the expense of getting the job done I wouldn't sell the car, I have gone down that route before and you'll only end up regretting it. I doubt you would recoup the costs so someone would just end up benefitting from the money you have spent getting the car right.

Not a clue but guess noise = eventual damage to the valve assembly?

I've talked myself out of selling it (just remembering the last good run which was ahem, a slightly quick blast on empty velvet surfaced roads through the weald/south downs, roof out, as the sun came up) [].

I may end up living in it as a result of the bill, almost certainly if Mrs L finds out!

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: dlknight

My 944S had noisy tappets after I had my head rebuilt following a belt failure. The car ran fine and oil pressure was fine, just an annoying tapping... Does it actually do any harm to carry on driving the car with noisy tappets if the head is still getting a healthy supply of oil?

I don't think it does. The tappets fit between the camp lobes and the top of the valves, and are held 'up' by oil pressure. If they wear, I think they just won't open as well as they should, and thus rattle. I don't know what the eventual end-point of a rattly one is, but I think you will quite possibly notice the loss of performance (from the valves not opening fully) long before the tappets finally give up the ghost. I know that in the VW world, there are a number of golfs trundling around with some VERY loud tappets (most of which would be silky smooth if the owners troubled themselves to do a proper oil flush, as described above.)

BUT, in your case I would be asking some questions about the rebuild you had done. Did all the tappets go back in the right holes? Did you have valve damage from the failed belt, as this could case similar symptoms to a rattly tappet, as described by Tref above. I'm not trying to be a doom-monger, but these are questions I would be asking.

Lawsi ... out of curiosity how many 944's have you had? The reason I ask is that I looked at a 944 being sold by someone with the same nickname as yours, who lived just outside Southampton. Also had a 3-series (M3 I think) and a nice corrado. Was into aerial photography ...


Oli.

 

[lawsi]

This is my first so different chap - assuming we have the same surname, we all seem to get this nickname eventually. Used to have an M3 though and have been suprised at how much more I like the '44 - bills apart!

 

[zcacogp]

OK. That's good, and I suspected it was the case.

(944 in question was one I chose not to buy. It wouldn't start - I jump started it off my Golf, the headlights wouldn't pop-up, the handbrake came off in my hand, it lacked the paper sticker on the rear of the boot (so was probably damaged), the service history didn't match up and he had no V5 to prove he owned it! Suffice it to say I used the discovery of the last fact as a reason to walk away and never go back ... )


Oli.

 

[dlknight]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp


BUT, in your case I would be asking some questions about the rebuild you had done. Did all the tappets go back in the right holes? Did you have valve damage from the failed belt, as this could case similar symptoms to a rattly tappet, as described by Tref above. I'm not trying to be a doom-monger, but these are questions I would be asking.

Not got that car anymore, moved onto the Turbo. It's a long story but the tappets did get mixed up, 3 valves were replaced. We came to the conclusion that to resolve the noise would cost too much at the time, so I just put up with it [&:]

Was a nice car - wish I had kept that one as well []

 

[lawsi]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

OK. That's good, and I suspected it was the case.

(

LOL! Is it that obvious! []

 

[berg944]

Did they use 5w oil?

Try a cheap 20/50 just to hear the difference.

Mine rattles on cold morning for a couple of seconds because I use 15/50.

Yours might rattle due to lack of pressure (not pump pressure) in the tappet due to wear or tappets being swapped around. Thicker oil will have higher pressure (at least before it gets too hot)

Mike[:'(]