Bottom fallen out of the market?

[colin129]

Have you seen the prices 944s are getting at the moment?

I have been trying to sell my car for some time with no takers, due to the mileage, but even lower mileage cars seem to be making very low prices.

Prices seem to have reduced by 50% or more in the past 12 months, have a look on Pistonheads/ebay. Maybe the very best cars are still making good money but these are few and far between, where does that leave the average owner who wants to sell?

Should I hang on to my car for the next 2 or 3 years in the hope that things will recover? Do I sell the old girl now for peanuts, I have owned her for nearly 12 years. I always said that if I had spent the same £15K 12 years ago on a Mondeo, that car would be worth much less than my S2, now I'm not so sure there is much of a differential.

In the hope there is a charitable fellow out there, or perhaps someone is looking to convert to a track car or something? I really don't know how to pitch it...

Its such a shame, she's a lovely old girl with plenty of years enjoyment left in her.

See here if you might be interested...

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/623526.htm

 

[daro911]

If you don't need to sell keep it for a few more years fun and maybe by then the credit crunching may have eased somewhat []
[FONT=tms rmn"]
"¢ Alfa Romeo sales down 44 percent, September 2008 vs 2007
"¢ Aston Martin -15 percent
"¢ Bentley -48 percent
"¢ BMW -24 percent
"¢ Cadillac -62 percent
"¢ Chevrolet -11 percent
"¢ Chrsyler -69 percent
"¢ Citroen -22 percent
"¢ Corvette -50 percent
"¢ Daihatsu -18 percent
"¢ Dodge -19 percent
"¢ Fiat -10 percent
"¢ Ford -23 percent
"¢ Honda -40 percent
"¢ Hyundai -10 percent
"¢ Jeep -61 percent
"¢ Kia -5 percent
"¢ Land Rover -50 percent
"¢ Lexus -44 percent
"¢ Lotus -19 percent
"¢ Mazda -2 percent
"¢ Mercedes-Benz -9 percent
"¢ Mini -19 percent
"¢ Mitsubishi -33 percent
"¢ Nissan -15 percent
"¢ Peugeot -28 percent
"¢ Porsche -33 percent
"¢ Renault -51 percent
"¢ Saab -47 percent
"¢ Seat -41 percent
"¢ Skoda -15 percent
"¢ Ssangyong -57 percent
"¢ Subaru -40 percent
"¢ Suzuki -19 percent
"¢ Toyota -10 percent
"¢ Vauxhall -17 percent
"¢ Volvo -6 percent

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Short answer is yes, the market is flatter than a flat thing. You should try selling a house at the moment - we were offered 35% less yesterday than the valuation in February....[&o]

I'd certainly say that values are down by between 35-50%, not really surprising. I'd guess that almost no-one is buying weekend toys the way I did 4 years ago, and the only people out there buying are either enthusiasts looking for something special (not many of them) or bargain-hunters who will buy anything if the seller is desperate enough to accept a silly price.

I suppose that with yours on the market for £3k, and you might not get more than say £1.5k, you need to weigh up the costs of keeping it for at least a few years over the loss you're bound to take in the present climate. With the press going on day after day about the possibilities of things getting even worse and then taking many years to recover, I can't see things improving in the short term, but my attitude is that my car is now worth so little I might as well enjoy it!

 

[colin129]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

I suppose that with yours on the market for £3k, and you might not get more than say £1.5k, you need to weigh up the costs of keeping it for at least a few years over the loss you're bound to take in the present climate....

.....but my attitude is that my car is now worth so little I might as well enjoy it!

I had high hopes, last year, of getting £4k and have had it advertised at £4,250 and £3,750 already.

Something with a 2 at the start would buy it now though, I have to weigh up the ownership costs vs the sale price and now I have sold the 306 daily driver, I had hoped to sell the 944S2 and get something a bit more comfortable for the daily grind.

I am using it for work at the moment, which I do not think is a good idea.

I'm even having those dark thoughts where I hope something will hit it hard enough to write it off, the problem will go away and I can argue with the insurance company about a valuation. [:'(]

 

[usermjg]

its bad news if your trying to sell, but good news if you fancy buying, i saw a 928gts for £10,995. wow, but i cant sell my 911

marc

 

[Wigeon Incognito]

ORIGINAL: colin129

I'm even having those dark thoughts where I hope something will hit it hard enough to write it off, the problem will go away and I can argue with the insurance company about a valuation. [:'(]

I know the feeling. I'm selling my MX-5 at the moment and have had little interest.

Weirdly, when I put my Midas up for sale to buy my MX-5 it was written off the morning I decided to sell but with no fault or injuries. The insurance company paid out twice what I'd decided to advertise it for, then I bought the salvage and sold that for four times more than I'd paid for it! Talk about luck!

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I'm even having those dark thoughts where I hope something will hit it hard enough to write it off, the problem will go away and I can argue with the insurance company about a valuation.

A timely reminder......[&:]

I'd suggest that insurers might just be a little reluctant to pay full market value on a claim now. Once again, PLEASE get an agreed value on your policy!

Club members, it's free to get an insurance valuation, and they are realistic valuations that take into account the fact that you need to ignore a lot of the cheap rubbish out there when valuing a decent car. [8|]

 

[Fen]

I'd use it every day. Why do you say that isn't a good idea?

Is £10,995 cheap for a 928 GTS? I'd have expected any 928 to struggle to 5 figures big-time the way things seem to be in the UK just now. I think you'd be mad to sell an iconic sportscar for an largely unloved (big and heavy) one that has a reputation for costing a fortune to run and fuel.

 

[J.C944TurboMan]

Alright Colin , very nice looking car and seems to have the Turbo style seats with the bigger bolsters . I feel for you it's a buyers market at the moment , but must be honest when you see the Miles on the clock it does put you off a little , Anyone in the Club know what mileage the S2 engine was bench tested too ?Might be a good selling tool . So for example if you can get that info then you could say in the advert , these 3.0L S2 engine's have been bench tested up to 500000miles before any engine failure developed ! So the S2 engine is just running in at 200000 ! I would be intrested in the bench test results if anyone can get hold of this info , best of luck with the sale of your S2 . I would Be careful what you wish for as it might be a drunk driver that hit's the S2 and writes it off alright but might leave you in a wheel chair in the process ! So I would rather stick with conventional ways. best regards J

 

[Mike_Dawson]

Writing as a punter [] : price (you're chasing the market, look at the 944s that have sold at a lower price on PH), mileage (OK, it's a Porsche so buy on condition) and listed maintenance costs are frightening.

If you have the space and you enjoy the car then keep it, I've given up trying to sell anything from my small yet perfectly formed collection, but life's clock is ticking for everyone so enjoy while it's there. Perhaps part-ex with something else (boat, m/cycle)

 

[944 man]

I feel that cars ore strongly over-valued by PCGB members here. I cant see my opinion being highly regarded but I think that people need to re-appraise their cars with a more realistic eye.

Ive seen people value cars here in a similar way to how I did owning them in the mid nineteen nineties: when they were far far newer... (Turbos particularly btw)

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: 944 man

I feel that cars ore strongly over-valued by PCGB members here. I cant see my opinion being highly regarded but I think that people need to re-appraise their cars with a more realistic eye.

Ive seen people value cars here in a similar way to how I did owning them in the mid nineteen nineties: when they were far far newer... (Turbos particularly btw)

I think I agree with you (depends how harshly you value I guess). I know I paid 8k for my Turbo in 2001, and while I wouldn't take a penny less for it today that's more because it's got well north of 20k in upgrades now - and it might well not be worth 8k even like that, but I just don't see the point in selling it for less. Had I kept it standard and just maintained it I'd have spent who knows how much on it, but I don't count that in the value as it's running costs. Arguably having owned it for 7 years and having paid only 8k for it I could justify throwing it away, and if it really could be sold for even 4k it would actually be doing pretty well.

Another case study - I paid 15,500 for a 1985 911 Carrera Sport in 1994 at which time it had 64k miles on it (who would know if that was accurate - I pretty much assume all these cars are clocked or have been run with the speedo disconnected in the 911's case). It was pretty sweet, but had still shed something like 27k in value from new over only 9 years. Nowadays it would be another 14 years older making it 23, but how much would it be worth (assuming it's still pretty sweet) 12k-13k? Is that a realistic expectation? Probably not.

 

[colin129]

ORIGINAL: Mike_Dawson

...listed maintenance costs are frightening.

Welcome to the world of Porsche mate!!

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: colin129

ORIGINAL: Mike_Dawson

...listed maintenance costs are frightening.

Welcome to the world of Porsche mate!!

12K service, no major additional work "" £745.02

That's not the world of Porsche; that's the world of having your trousers pulled down and then voluntarily bending over. By about 500 quid minimum.

If what Mike was saying is that you should take out the costs then I agree. You clearly haven't used the most cost-effective service provider and to be fair who in their right mind is going to buy a high-mileage car for under 3 grand if they think it will cost them 750 quid for a service even when there is nothing wrong with it? Nobody in the 3k market has that kind of money for servicing.

 

[Fen]

In fact on further reflection I'd take all that history stuff out completely. It's only going to scare away people who don't know the cars and for me as someone who does it has highlighted that the cam chain doesn't appear to have been looked at until 163k miles. I don't know who looked at it then, but I'd be amazed if that was the first time it was checked and it didn't need to be replaced. In fact I'd be pretty moderately surprised if the cams didn't need to be replaced also.

Now I have nothing against miles and I drove my S2 cab to 192,500 miles before I sold it, and I am utterly confident that there might nothing major wrong with it (I'd budget for new cams if I were buying though, which I'd allow 1200 quid for). To shift what sounds like a leggy motor you need to make it sound like it has been very reliable, maintained correctly and that that was not an onerous nor expensive task. I'm not sure asking for a Focus diesel as a PX is a good idea either as that says to me "expensive to run, needs a cheaper car" or "sick of throwing money at the 944".

Surely the Devil you know is better than a cheap diesel shopping trolley with who knows what nasties anyway, and if you're looking for a more expensive shopping trolley then the difference in price would run the 944 for a good while yet. Realistically it's never going to be worth much less than it seems to be at the moment and it might even go up in value when things improve economically.

 

[Diver944]

I too would take out the actual amounts spent, as it may well be scaring potential buyers who are looking at a cheap motor. The early amounts themselves don't put me off as I would suspect those large bills back in the 90's were from main dealers. My own car has some scarey four figure bills for simple main dealer services back in the mid 90's

 

[morris944s2john]

I'd say by now the car would possibly need new cams, as well as a new clutch due soon and almost certainly would need new wishbone ball joints. That lot together would equal 3K+ if done at a specialist.

The only way a 944S2 or turbo could be financially viable these days is if the work is done DIY.

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: morris944s2john

The only way a 944S2 or turbo could be financially viable these days is if the work is done DIY.

Oh yeah, and we are talking waaay cheap. Its all the little things that cost on these, I reckon if you do everything yourself you are looking at no more then a few hundred pounds a year in maintainence costs on an S2 or turbo (not including tyres). They are such solid robust cars it actually makes a lot of sense to run one as a long term daily driver DIY job. In fact I am trying to sort my S2 at the moment so I can use it daily instead of the Saab which believe it or not has cost me more to run then the Porsche. The only fly in the ointment is rust and potentially expensive resprays.

How cheap are cars now? Try a like new looking Mazda Rx-8 I spotted in a local dealers at the weekend for 6 grand.

 

[morris944s2john]

I am running mine as dIY daily driver (or it will be when I've done the work for the MOT), as for rust and re-sprays, learn to weld and paint on a restoration course!

 

[colin129]

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey

ORIGINAL: morris944s2john

The only way a 944S2 or turbo could be financially viable these days is if the work is done DIY.

Its all the little things that cost on these......

Sorry been away...

I rest my case, £745 may seem a lot with no major additional work, but its all the little things that add up & I get everythihg done. I'm hardly likely to point out that I had a headlamp replaced 10 years ago now am I? Looking at the bill again, I think I had the coolant & brake fluid changed at the time.

Take the point about removing the invoice costs and I will do this, but this is the cost of ownership, as you guys MUST know. You should see the money that has been spent on the 964 over the past years. Certainly makes a 944S2 look cheap.