Bottom fallen out of the market?

[xenon]

This chap doesn't think the bottom has fallen out:

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/727452.htm

Nice but I don't think anyone will pay £15k for it.

 

[944 LIL]

ORIGINAL: xenon

This chap doesn't think the bottom has fallen out:

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/727452.htm

Nice but I don't think anyone will pay £15k for it.

Agreed - very nice

However, he's just not keeping up with the global ecomony - if he read the Iceland thread he'd realise he could get half of down town Reykjavik for £15k - and there's been a load of re-development to the whole west end, not just an engine bay....

 

[j4mou]

ORIGINAL: morris944s2john
I'd say by now the car would possibly need new cams, as well as a new clutch due soon and almost certainly would need new wishbone ball joints. That lot together would equal 3K+ if done at a specialist.

what would it cost for that lot to be done? are you basing the work that may need doing on the mileage?

cheers

James

 

[Fen]

That's Simon P's car, he's a member here and it has been disscussed elsewhere.

I couldn't comment on the detail of the state of the UK economy and its likely effects (watching the international news I suspect neither can anyone else, chancellor, PM and economic "experts" included) so I don't know. What I would say however is that you will not find another car like that for a long, long time so it's not competing with the others for sale but simply waiting for someone who wants one in that condition and knows what it would cost to recreate. Mark K is the only other member who springs to mind that has striven for perfection on a standard car and if he chooses to comment I strongly suspect he will back up that £15k is very realistic.

Also consider that if I were in the position of having funds in the bank, or invested elsewhere, I might be inclined to buy just now, reasoning it's the most significantly buyer's market for quite some time. That being the case I would of course be looking either for a bargain (something I couldn't otherwise afford in other words) or something exceptional - in a buyer's market the buyer needs something to attract them to buy whatever it is they buy rather than all the other things also for sale.

I'm sure Simon is realistic about the current conditions and chances of sale, and I suspect he's probably got as much, if not more, chance of selling for what he wants than all the people selling even quite nice but average cars which exist in more significant numbers. All he needs is a long-time Porsche buyer who has had a scary trade-in quote in his GT3 RS and decided to keep it for a bit longer and maybe fancies a really mint 944 Turbo as a nostalgia trip for 20 years ago.

Look back over the activity on here in the past few weeks. I genuinely think there has been a higher volume of "Hi, I've just bought a 944" or "Hi, I want to buy a 944" posts than I remember ever before.

Going back to the S2 and running costs I completely agree, but I reiterate my previous comment - nobody who is going to buy a sub-£3k, leggy S2 is going to be expecting that sort of running costs because they either won't do the miles in it (so it's not relevant) or they can't afford it. I genuinely believe hanging on to it is the best option because by the sound of it £3k is the value of an average one nowadays and it's very close to the psychological 200,000 miles mark which puts everyone off to some extent (especially "punters" with little knowledge) and it hasn't had cams which puts more knowledgeable people off.

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: j4mou

ORIGINAL: morris944s2john
I'd say by now the car would possibly need new cams, as well as a new clutch due soon and almost certainly would need new wishbone ball joints. That lot together would equal 3K+ if done at a specialist.

what would it cost for that lot to be done? are you basing the work that may need doing on the mileage?

cheers

James

I've had cams done on both my S2s. My indie reckoned when I last asked him he could do cams for unerd £1k all up, which is cheap but it depends on the Euro exchange rate as he's cheap because he found out who makes them for Porsche and can get them at trade price, which I understand is difficult with this particular part. Costs I'd suggest are £1,000 to £1,500 for cams then.

A clutch change on an S2 is anywhere from £600 to £1,000 would be my guess. Costs can rise if other things need to be replaced, but should be in the lower part of that range with luck.

Ball joints are as per any '87- 944. Recon units are sub £200 each exchange (new are about £200 more each), fitting and alignment afterward might make it a £650 job all up - knock off something like £200-£225 if only one side is being done.

All-up that lot is in the £2,250 - £3,000 range. To be fair that's the bulk of the likely non service work (perhaps a caliper refurb for plate-lift could be added).

I initially suggested the cams probably need doing based on my experience. They fail through age and/or mileage. Sometimes the case-hardening is starting to fail which I understand can happen on lowish mileage cars. I know of a cab which was bought just before my Turbo in 2001 that had cams a few years later. It had 67k on the clock in 2001 and doesn't get used all that much; I think it had 80k last time I spoke to the owner. It's also possible for teeth to have worn badly and in the worst case to shear off. We had someone on here a few years ago who ended up spending north of £3k recovering from sheared teeth and he then had to sell the car on to cover his costs, the sad reality being he'd actually have been better off breaking the car than fixing it.

I've said before that I would only buy an S2 paying at least £1.5k less than its true value to cover me for cams unless someone I trust has looked at them recently and pronounced them OK, or that it has had them replaced relatively recently. i did that with my cab and it needed them, so I didn't get it as cheap as I might have done, but I didn't have an unexpected bill on getting it looked at post purchase. I personally can't see that replacing the chain alone is good practice as it's just a bike chain and you never replace a (motor)bike chain without also replacing the sprockets, butplenty of people will tell you it's been OK for them. Time will tell is my view if I'm honest and I'd like to see the sprockets of a 175k engine 50k miles after just the chain was replaced to see if, as I suspect they would, they have accelerated wear.

Clutches clearly can last massively different mileages depending how the car is used and driven. The S2 clutch has a rubber centre instead of springs (not unlike a cushion drive on a motorbike) and being rubber that clearly will degrade over time. I had one break up and you'll know if you look at one where it has falied because you will not be able to disengage the clutch, or it will have the mother and father of backlash on/off power. I got approximately 0 seconds warning it was going to fail; one gearchange fine, next not possible. I then spent a few miles messing with it and got it to break up completely so I could get gears smoothly, but the backlash was there by that point of course. That suggests to me that an old clutch in an S2 needs to be considered a possibly and sudden failure point regardless of whether or not it slips.

I've only had to replace one ball joint in 5 944s, and the car drove dangerously it was so worn, but lost of people need to replace then so it's a valid item to consider.

In terms of chap 944s the one with the failed ball joint I bought like that at auction. I paid £3,550 for it - a 1989 250 turbo in satin black - in 2000 when they were going for circa £10k at least. I fixed the ball joint and outed it for a £50 profit as I could see even owing me 40% of the market value of a reasonable one it was going to be an uneconomic money-pit (it had paint defects, didn't run like it should, needed brake attention etc. etc.). Parts and labour haven't got cheaper since 2000 so by that measure there are a lot of 944s around today that are literally not worth paying anything for, unless you want to break them for spares.

 

[colin129]

It is easy to tell scare stories Fen, since you have owned a 964 you probably can tell plenty more too.

You can think of 1000s of reasons not to buy one, but once you have tackled some twisty bits or a long journey in one, you forget the service bills and just enjoy.

The first time I drove mine from London to Manchester, straight off, no fuss (having spent some nightmareish journeys in Dolomite Sprints) I knew I had brought the right car. I have been to the South of France several times and spent far far more time cleaning and polishing than checking the levels. They rarely move between oil changes, even after all this time and the high mileage. I have been to Le Mans 3 times in her and near the France/Swiss/German border region (Voges) where my other half's parents live numerous times.

This is a great motor and I can sell her to anyone with a clear conscience.

 

[Fen]

So why are you selling, to replace it with a diesel Focus?

I'm just trying to be realistic and I'm definitely not knocking your car so I apologise if it came across that way. I think the sad reality is that right now there are perhaps fewer buyer than normal, even for autumn, and a lot of S2s on the market and that purely based on miles alone the majority will sell before yours unless yours is cheaper by an amount that makes a difference. That is absolutely not to say that the others are better - in fact if they have been owned by someone who doesn't know the car and possibly doesn't have the money to look after it properly then they are probably a less good bet, but to the majority of buyers looking at 944s the mileage is scary. If I were in the market I wouldn't let the mileage cloud my judgement too much, but I would be aware that I would be taking the car over 200,000 and I might struggle to sell it on again, and that would affect my decision.

Possibly getting people to look at the car is the hard part as if it's nice and well presented and doesn't seem to have any issues they might weight the mileage lass than they do seeing it on paper, but you can't leave it out of the ad as that will mean they either ignore it anyway or they ask and it sounds like you're trying to hide it.

In all seriousness you say you can sell it with a clear conscience (which is good and which I believe) so it has to be worth more to you than you'll get for it just now. It's still the same right car you describe in your post above. I'd keep it and sell the 306 PoS (I know; I had a GTI-6, and it cost a lot more to run than my S2 cab) if you need space and use the S2.


My 964? I bought it relatively cheap with some blisters at the bottom of the front screen, horrible Boxster wheels, but (IMO) in the right colour combo. I sold it 6 months later for £2,500 or so more than I paid for it, but without doing sums and working out how much I got for the Boxster wheels etc. I'd say I probably spent £4,500 on it fixing the corrosion with repair sections, overhauling the brakes, fitting Cup1s with proper tyres, lowering with RS alignment settings etc. so it cost me £2k in real terms. I was able to sell it with a clear conscience also, but in truth there was still a list of things I'd have liked to do to it had I kept it - stuff like the engine tin-ware and addressing the weep of oil it had (which some people say is impossible). The guy I sold it to is on PH and I saw a post a few months ago that seems to suggest it's still going well and hasn't cost him anything too major.

 

[colin129]

The 306 has already gone & once/if I sell the S2, the 964 will be my main focus of attention & I will use a small car for my 50 mile round trip commute

 

[Hilux]

I feel that cars ore strongly over-valued by PCGB members here. I cant see my opinion being highly regarded but I think that people need to re-appraise their cars with a more realistic eye.

Nail and head come to mind.

 

[hotblack944]

ORIGINAL: Fen
The guy I sold it to is on PH and I saw a post a few months ago that seems to suggest it's still going well and hasn't cost him anything too major.

Did you see this?
http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=402652

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: Hilux

I feel that cars ore strongly over-valued by PCGB members here. I cant see my opinion being highly regarded but I think that people need to re-appraise their cars with a more realistic eye.

Nail and head come to mind.

Well that was my opinion also and in most cases I would agree but each car has to be judged on it's own merits, RPM had a refurbished car a while back that was around £9k, I never went to see it but I think that was a reasonable price for the spec, at that time.

 

[Diver944]

I do agree that we generally include a sentimental value to cars that we own whenever trying to place a monetary value on them. However when you have owned one of these for any length of time, and have been to multiple car club events where there are literally hundreds of others all parked together you tend to realise that there are an incredibly high number of 944 sh1tboxes out there now. When I bought mine in 1998 there were hardly any bad Turbo's or S2's around, it was simply a case of finding the right colour and price that suited my needs [].

Nowadays the opposite is true - they are mostly crap! It pains me to say it but it is true []. The vast majority are bought by people tempted in to buying a cheap Porsche and they are being sold by people who have now realised they can't afford to run a cheap Porsche. However if you keep on going to 'enthusiast' events you gradually get to see that the one's owned by true enthusiasts are a cut above the others. It may be snobby to say this and I apologise if it sounds snobby but I honestly believe it's true.

If you are buying a 20 year old, non mass produced, sports car you really need to buy one from an owner who has spent money hand over fist in maintaining it, replacing things as soon as you are advised they are starting to wear - not waiting until they break. I have never met Colin or seen his car, but it's history looks almost identical to mine with a couple of big bills just like mine. Reconcile that with the fact that he has also been running a much more expensive 964 at the same time and I'd stick my neck out and say there would be very little to find wrong with it.

Just my opinion (from another S2 owner approaching 190k miles) but I have NO intention of ever selling it []

 

[appletonn]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

I do agree that we generally include a sentimental value to cars that we own whenever trying to place a monetary value on them. However when you have owned one of these for any length of time, and have been to multiple car club events where there are literally hundreds of others all parked together you tend to realise that there are an incredibly high number of 944 sh1tboxes out there now. When I bought mine in 1998 there were hardly any bad Turbo's or S2's around, it was simply a case of finding the right colour and price that suited my needs [].

Nowadays the opposite is true - they are mostly crap! It pains me to say it but it is true []. The vast majority are bought by people tempted in to buying a cheap Porsche and they are being sold by people who have now realised they can't afford to run a cheap Porsche. However if you keep on going to 'enthusiast' events you gradually get to see that the one's owned by true enthusiasts are a cut above the others. It may be snobby to say this and I apologise if it sounds snobby but I honestly believe it's true.

If you are buying a 20 year old, non mass produced, sports car you really need to buy one from an owner who has spent money hand over fist in maintaining it, replacing things as soon as you are advised they are starting to wear - not waiting until they break. I have never met Colin or seen his car, but it's history looks almost identical to mine with a couple of big bills just like mine. Reconcile that with the fact that he has also been running a much more expensive 964 at the same time and I'd stick my neck out and say there would be very little to find wrong with it.

Just my opinion (from another S2 owner approaching 190k miles) but I have NO intention of ever selling it []

Paul, you voiced what i have thought more than once. My car is no garage queen nor is it a concours example, but I do know that it is mechanically sorted and once I have the front screen out and the minor bubbling under the trim sorted, it will be a rust free example too.

I have been to quite a few meets this year of one kind and another and I always, without fail, get back into my car after the events knowing that my car is actually pretty damn good, compared to some of the rough money pits out there!

I think that the market will continue to polarise and there gap between the decent cars and the rest will continue to widen.

Not that I intend selling....[]

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: hotblack944

ORIGINAL: Fen
The guy I sold it to is on PH and I saw a post a few months ago that seems to suggest it's still going well and hasn't cost him anything too major.

Did you see this?
http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=402652

I have now. I guess it does need a wee bit spending on it after all.

 

[Mike_Dawson]

A red 944 S2 just achieved £4k on ebay, 135k miles. Markets are strange things.

 

[Jonny B]

Im interested to see what the silver turbo goes for on ebay tonuight, 24k of receipts.... Seems worth a look

 

[944 man]

ORIGINAL: xenon

This chap doesn't think the bottom has fallen out:

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/727452.htm

Nice but I don't think anyone will pay £15k for it.

You have to concede that that is a very clean car. In fact it looks cleaner than my 250 looked when it was still quite new.....

I dont think that he has much chance of selling it for £15,000 though, even before the financial climate took such a gloomy turn. As an aside: Im curious to know why he has had the bores nikasil coated. Porsche used a process called borasil, but 944 blocks have a very high silicone content and dont need any special coating, as far as I am aware?

 

[Mike_Dawson]

That is very clean, it would be a shame to drive it ... so not for me then.

 

[colin129]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

If you are buying a 20 year old, non mass produced, sports car you really need to buy one from an owner who has spent money hand over fist in maintaining it, replacing things as soon as you are advised they are starting to wear - not waiting until they break. I have never met Colin or seen his car, but it's history looks almost identical to mine with a couple of big bills just like mine. Reconcile that with the fact that he has also been running a much more expensive 964 at the same time and I'd stick my neck out and say there would be very little to find wrong with it.

Just my opinion (from another S2 owner approaching 190k miles) but I have NO intention of ever selling it []

Thankyou, and this is pretty much the case!

I have had a small amount of interest, from some people following this thread (thankyou guys, but you really must come and see it, drive it and look at the history!)

Since the 306 is now gone, using it as my daily driver again and its just as good as ever.

You will be getting a proper, usable example which you can gradually sort out the few cosmetics over the years.

What are you waiting for?![8|][8|][8|]