Brake upgrade?

robbies · May 18, 2009

Hi, all -
I'm a recently new 944S2 (1990) owner and wondered what the team's thoughts are on getting better performance from the brakes?
I've read in previous posts that, generally, a good bleed will give better results than one might expect, and it's certainly cheaper than upgrading any hardware. But talking to my mechanic today I learned that the standard brakes work better the hotter they are. Since I'm not a "brake-heavy" kind of a guy that scenario doesn't offer much comfort! An alternative he suggested was just changing the pads for now to something with a name like ***Reading (the *s are the initials that I can't remember! Can anyone fill in the blanks and then comment on them??). He said the downside is that you tend to get more squeak on braking and the more abrasive compound will wear the discs quicker, but they certainly give a better performance.
Comments and other suggestions, please..!

appletonn · May 18, 2009

ORIGINAL: robbies

Hi, all -
I'm a recently new 944S2 (1990) owner and wondered what the team's thoughts are on getting better performance from the brakes?
I've read in previous posts that, generally, a good bleed will give better results than one might expect, and it's certainly cheaper than upgrading any hardware. But talking to my mechanic today I learned that the standard brakes work better the hotter they are. Since I'm not a "brake-heavy" kind of a guy that scenario doesn't offer much comfort! An alternative he suggested was just changing the pads for now to something with a name like ***Reading (the *s are the initials that I can't remember! Can anyone fill in the blanks and then comment on them??). He said the downside is that you tend to get more squeak on braking and the more abrasive compound will wear the discs quicker, but they certainly give a better performance.
Comments and other suggestions, please..!

Perhaps EBC Reds?!

Mixed reviews of them, although latest compounds are supposedly much better.

barks944 · May 18, 2009

Sorry for the hijack but can you fit s2/turbo calipers onto an 84 lux? Porscheshop do some adapter plates but they say they are for boxster calipers. Obv need discs too.

Diver944 · May 18, 2009

ORIGINAL: barks944

Sorry for the hijack but can you fit s2/turbo calipers onto an 84 lux?

Not easily. They're a totally different setup so you would need to fit the later hubs to use the later callipers and disks

sawood12 · May 18, 2009

ORIGINAL: robbies

Hi, all -
I'm a recently new 944S2 (1990) owner and wondered what the team's thoughts are on getting better performance from the brakes?
I've read in previous posts that, generally, a good bleed will give better results than one might expect, and it's certainly cheaper than upgrading any hardware. But talking to my mechanic today I learned that the standard brakes work better the hotter they are. Since I'm not a "brake-heavy" kind of a guy that scenario doesn't offer much comfort! An alternative he suggested was just changing the pads for now to something with a name like ***Reading (the *s are the initials that I can't remember! Can anyone fill in the blanks and then comment on them??). He said the downside is that you tend to get more squeak on braking and the more abrasive compound will wear the discs quicker, but they certainly give a better performance.
Comments and other suggestions, please..!

If you are unhappy with the performance of your stock brakes then something must be amiss. If working fine they should be every bit as good as brakes on any other car you've driven. Granted they are not over-servo'd like modern cars brakes but that just means you need to use your leg muscles a bit more and get used to a longer brake pedal. All better for performance driving anyway. Stock S2 brakes are more than man enough for all but the heaviest track/race duty. Porsches have rightfully earned their reputation for having decent brakes. The advice you got regarding the brakes work better the hotter they are is just simply incorrect. The performance of the brakes is really down to the combination of the disc and pad material so in stock configuration they will be largely intended for road use so therefore should work just fine when cold. Aftermarket performance pads might work better when hotter, but that is because they use materials that can withstand the sustained higher temperatures you will see on track. If you stick with stock then that will be perfectly fine. I only upgraded my brakes because I wanted to have some extra capacity and I had the opportunity to get them from the states at the same price in $ as in £ at a time when the exchange rate was 2 for 1 so it worked out cheaper than refurbing my stock calipers.

It is however good advice to replace your brake fluid regularly with decent stuff and make sure that everything works as it should - i.e. no caliper plate lift.

In my view unless you are going to track your car regularly and hard then stick to stock pads. Aftermarket performance pads have many disadvantages when used on a road car (noisy, corrosive dust, chew discs up, poor cold bite performance, expensive) with the benefits they provide rarely being exploited (better high temperature performance), so unless you are going to use the car alot on track, and hard when on track then stock will be better all round.

zcacogp · May 18, 2009

I have never played around with anything remotely track-orientated in terms of pad and disk on my S2, but the brakes are MORE than adequate for very brisk road use, using the car's performance to the full. I changed the front disks and pads just before the winter and they really can stand the car on it's nose when you want them to.

As Scott said, if you are finding them to be lacking (in anything other than the amount of shove required to work them - they are heavy compared with modern cars) then there is something wrong. Check for plate lift all 'round, make sure the pads and disks are in decent nick and not goosed and change the fluid.

If they won't make you stop to your satisfaction after that lot then come back and we'll talk about upgrades ....

Oli.

James_G · May 19, 2009

Like you, my S2 brakes were a bit weak when I got it, needing seemingly a huge shove and there still being no "bite. So I changed the fluid to some nice Castrol Super Response, and bled the whole system which really helped, but they still rumbled after a few laps of Bedford.

Since the discs and pads were an unknown quantity to me, having been changed by a previous owner, I have just recently put on Sebro discs and Pagid OEM spec pads (as opposed to their more expensive blue/black varietals), which has made a massive difference. They are now wonderfully progressive, such that you can hold the car on the verge of the ABS consistently on the track. And they have fabulous bite too.

Depending on the nature of your car's previous owner you may have some very generic pads in there that aren't doing the job. If you go this route and it doesn't work, then as Oli says, come back to talk upgrades but it ain't going to be cheap...

edh · May 19, 2009

ORIGINAL: robbies

But talking to my mechanic today I learned that the standard brakes work better the hotter they are.

Bit of an odd comment IMO - get them too hot & they won't work at all!

I'd echo the previous posts - get them working properly & they are more than you need for the road. OE (textar?) pads are good even for moderate track use. I bought some big blacks for my car but sold them on as I decided my brakes (250 turbo) were easily good enough even for hard track use with new discs & pads (OK - very expensive PFC pads [

])

MRGT · May 19, 2009

ORIGINAL: appletonn

Perhaps EBC Reds?!

Mixed reviews of them, although latest compounds are supposedly much better.

Im interested to know what it is about EBC reds that people find disagreeable. I have had them on my two previous cars (Octavia vRS's) and they were massively better than the oem pads, giving excellent stopping ability, do they simply not work with older vehicles ? . As I am unhappy with the current braking in my 944S I was looking at having the fluid replaced and new pads all round, so I assume that standard pads (Mintex/Pagid/Textar) are the pad of choice ?

zcacogp · May 19, 2009

ORIGINAL: James_G

varietals

Ooooh, great word - thanks!

I'll try and use it in conversation today sometime ...

Oli.

edh · May 19, 2009

ORIGINAL: MRGT

ORIGINAL: appletonn

Perhaps EBC Reds?!

Mixed reviews of them, although latest compounds are supposedly much better.

Click to expand...

Im interested to know what it is about EBC reds that people find disagreeable. I have had them on my two previous cars (Octavia vRS's) and they were massively better than the oem pads, giving excellent stopping ability, do they simply not work with older vehicles ? . As I am unhappy with the current braking in my 944S I was looking at having the fluid replaced and new pads all round, so I assume that standard pads (Mintex/Pagid/Textar) are the pad of choice ?

I think it's partly about personal taste - but in my 924S I found them very "dead" and lacking in feel. They stop the car fine on the track, but I preferred other pads. TBH, for road use I wouldn't bother & just stick with cheaper OE (Pagid/Textar). When I was looking for pads a few years ago, there weren't many "performance" pads for that caliper.

One thing to consider is that most braking systems in newer cars are already over servoed and very "dead" feeling, so perhaps choice of pad is less important. The 944's controls have a wonderfully "mechanical" feel to them, with a very direct link between your inputs and the resulting actions.

James_G · May 19, 2009

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

ORIGINAL: James_G

varietals

Click to expand...

Ooooh, great word - thanks!

I'll try and use it in conversation today sometime ...

Oli.

Apparently only strictly to be used when talking about wine, but since there are no doubt many parellels between fine brakes and fine wine (you don't need either of them, but they are nice when you have them etc, etc) I think we can get away with it [

]

sawood12 · May 19, 2009

ORIGINAL: MRGT

ORIGINAL: appletonn

Perhaps EBC Reds?!

Mixed reviews of them, although latest compounds are supposedly much better.

Click to expand...

Im interested to know what it is about EBC reds that people find disagreeable. I have had them on my two previous cars (Octavia vRS's) and they were massively better than the oem pads, giving excellent stopping ability, do they simply not work with older vehicles ? . As I am unhappy with the current braking in my 944S I was looking at having the fluid replaced and new pads all round, so I assume that standard pads (Mintex/Pagid/Textar) are the pad of choice ?

Well on my stock brake setup for a while I had Zimmerman drilled Sport discs and EBC Red Ceramics and I would say that they were positively dangerous. The cold bite is non existent. When cold it felt like someone had replaced the pads with bars of soap. A far inferior setup than the stock pads I replaced that were worn. I knew my calipers were fine before the pads were fitted with no caliper plate life and the fluid was replaced as well. I did one trackday on them and they did improve with temperature, but they never felt sharp and never gave me any real confidence under braking. I wish I had stuck with stock pads. When I upgraded to big blacks I was talked into going for EBC Yellows. These are much better than reds for cold bite, but still lack feel and they squeal. As soon as i've got a few other jobs out of the way on the car i'll be replacing the Yellows with stock.

I think stock are fine for all but the heaviest track use. In fact I'd go as far to say that with stock pads even if I did find their limits, say on track days, i'd look to improve cooling before using aftermarket pads, or at the least swap out the pads for trackdays with aftermarket pads.

944 man · May 20, 2009

EBC are terrible: and Im not a fan of Zimmerman disks either, but at least theyre not dangerous.

Indi9xx · May 20, 2009

S2 Brakes - Before you decide they need uprating, make sure they are working 100%... We see so many 944 S2's and Turbo's with caliper plate lift so bad that the brakes are only transfering less than 50% of the available force and in some cases only to one side of the disk!!

LUX upgrade - If its pre 85.5, you can fit the 86 944 turbo hubs, disks and calipers, but you need to have the near side hub machined to accept a speedo cable. Rear calipers and disks from a 944 turbo also fit right on. No need to even change the master cylinder in many cases.

LUX upgrade - If its an 86 model you can fit 944 turbo disks and calipers without a hub modification. again the rear calipers and disks for a turbo bolt straight on.

LUX upgrade - if its an 87 model, you can fit 87 to 92 944 turbo or S2 front hubs, calipers and disks... again no need for a master cylinder upgrade and the rear disks and calipers bolt straight on.

EBC - Nice low amount of brake dust... wears your disks out VERY quickly, can squeel, can be less peformance than something like pagid or textar pads.

Brake fluid - ATE blue is good stuff... Castrol racing fluid is VERY good but very expensive

John Sims · May 21, 2009

ORIGINAL: sawood12

......EBC Red Ceramics and I would say that they were positively dangerous. The cold bite is non existent. When cold it felt like someone had replaced the pads with bars of soap. .......

I would echo that. This trait is most noticeable after a good long dual carriageway coming to a roundabout. You need to touch the pedal to pre-heat the brakes ready for when you need them. They certainly don't inspire confidence.

barks944 · May 21, 2009

ORIGINAL: Indi9xx

S2 Brakes - Before you decide they need uprating, make sure they are working 100%... We see so many 944 S2's and Turbo's with caliper plate lift so bad that the brakes are only transfering less than 50% of the available force and in some cases only to one side of the disk!!

LUX upgrade - If its pre 85.5, you can fit the 86 944 turbo hubs, disks and calipers, but you need to have the near side hub machined to accept a speedo cable. Rear calipers and disks from a 944 turbo also fit right on. No need to even change the master cylinder in many cases.

LUX upgrade - If its an 86 model you can fit 944 turbo disks and calipers without a hub modification. again the rear calipers and disks for a turbo bolt straight on.

LUX upgrade - if its an 87 model, you can fit 87 to 92 944 turbo or S2 front hubs, calipers and disks... again no need for a master cylinder upgrade and the rear disks and calipers bolt straight on.

EBC - Nice low amount of brake dust... wears your disks out VERY quickly, can squeel, can be less peformance than something like pagid or textar pads.

Brake fluid - ATE blue is good stuff... Castrol racing fluid is VERY good but very expensive

Thanks for the summary, very helpful. What is the issue on the 1984 lux that requires you to machine the near side hub to accept a speedo cable? Does the turbo use an electronic speed measurement that doesnt require it to have a speedo cable or somthing?

944 man · May 21, 2009

Early cars use a hub originated mechanical drive. series two cars use an electronic sender attached to the transaxle.

Simon

Neil Haughey · May 21, 2009

Worth adding that the stock pads and disks (brembo S2/turbo/968) tend to result in a very wooden feeling peddle and lack of immediate stopping power if the car is driven gently for to long. A few good hard stabs on the peddle will get the pads biting again. Its not an effect that changes the ultimate power as a hefty shove will still get the brakes on hard but I have found this trait on both my S2 and 968, perhaps the pads tend to glaze over a bit and need a few hard stops to break through the glaze.