Cab v's Coup.' Turbo v's 3.0 S2..?

[BobbyH]

I've ended up here, as a lifelong petrolhead who turns 40 next month. Eep!!

I'm lucky to have a £5k blow-softening present to myself war-chest.

The original remit was, fast, convertible, rear-wheel drive.

This got me looking at S2000's and Boxters; however, visually, both leave me a bit, meh! I mean if you pass one, one isn't wrenched from one's thought's with.. 'Ooh, look at that!'

So then I arrived at 944 S2 convertibles, which look fantastic, and seem to have all been owned by rich mens wives, and so had pampered lives, if the odd shopping ding!

Then being a purist at heart, I have had my head turned by the availability of Turbo 944's for my £5k budget.

So I went to see the one on PH in Wigan, and an albeit brief drive revealed egg boiling time scale turbo lag!

My question then - in the real world, is a good 3.0 S2 almost as quick as a Turbo, which seems like it'd be hard work to drive fast, always having to be in the right gear to keep on-boost. Fun, but hard-work, if you get me?

And having never owned a convertible of any sort, (part of the appeal), does the scuttle shake become annoying?

Cheers, it's a fun thing to ponder!

 

[bmnelsc]

I'll start the war here by saying that the S2 is best all around road car - no turbo lag - lots of torque - 4 piston brakes - turbo bodywork - what more could you want? Remember that the S2 is down only 12 HP from the original turbos (pre turbo s) so it gets along very nicely without a lot of rowing the gearshift to keep the turbo spooled up.

Of course - If I had a turbo rather than an S2 I might have a different opinion [8|]

 

[BobbyH]

Being an 80's child, I'm a sucker for anything with a Turbo badge!

 

[Frenchy]

Turbo lag can be near enough tuned out, a tweaked turbo will make you grin like an eejit ! the cab is also available in turbo flavour but they are pricy and rare. As said the S2 is a great all rounder and very capable, but the BOOOOOOOOOST gets me every time.
The car at Wigan if at a dealers in Glacier Blue is not a Turbo S as advertised BTW.
Get out in a few different cars and make a choice from there.

 

[944 man]

Maximum power isnt that different, but BHP is only a way of describing the characteristics of torque and revs. Look at the torque curve and youll see why a Turbo is a far faster car, despite similar BHP figures.

 

[MarkK]

I would go S2, a turbo for 5k will need some ££££s spending on it.

 

[BobbyH]

My head hear's you on the £££'s Mark, but my heart is a bit mutton!

How do you tune out lag? And why didn't Porsche do it?

I used to own a 10v Ur quattro turbo, and was active on forums, and never once heard about tuning out lag?..

 

[944 turbo cabrio]

Hi Bobby,

I have a Turbo Cab that has now done almost 80,000 miles. On the original suspension and 17" wheels I had little scuttle shake. On (very) bad roads it does however happen. I am sure that this is quite common with the age our cars now have reached When putting on 17" or even worse 18" you deteriorate the comfort considerably!
I have a year ago uprated to Gaz Gold Coil-overs and this has in no way made scuttle shake any worse - unless I forget to re-adjust the dampers when driving home from the track In this case nothing but silky smooth roads is tolerable

As refers the performance it is true that a bit of work with the stick is required to really unleash the beast However when doing it right the turbo is clearly faster than the S2. In city driving however the S2 is the more relaxed and "lazy" drive
A simple but yet effectful and cheap up-grade would be to put on a boost enhancer - that helps boost build up !!

On our Porsche Club track days I have regularly been driving against S2 Coupes that have been stripped out and prepared for Clubsport racing and despite my car being standard except for the coil overs and a somewhat tired engine that needs a rebuild then I have not yet experienced an S2 that could keep up with me on the narrow and twisty tracks we have in Denmark (quite unsuited for my car really).

I hope these findings of my own are somewhat useful (and suspect soon to see S2 drivers chiming in .........[]

Cheers

Niels

 

[Gordon Attar]

A dual barrelled wastegate and controller will sort that out.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

S2 is a GT car; a supremely competant motorway car that also delivers everyday thrills, but it's not a lightweight sports car. The turbo is an awesome piece of kit, but in all honesty I think it needs to have an owner who is willing to spend money upgrading it, is a bit of a "tinkerer" who likes the challenge of improving on a pretty old design, and who is a very good driver. Something I'm not, hence my never owning a 944 turbo. [&:]

I'm repeating my old, boring opinion here, but unless you have access to camera-free de-restricted roads a 944 Lux in really good order is actually all the car you need. The Top Gear review of the Toyota/Subaru thing was essentially saying the same thing. A light, reasonably powered, under-tyred, cheap car is arguably the best thing you could have as a toy on our UK roads. Keep half the budget back for repairs or improvements, keep your license clean, and have something you can throw away if it gets bent or breaks.

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: BobbyH
How do you tune out lag? And why didn't Porsche do it?

I used to own a 10v Ur quattro turbo, and was active on forums, and never once heard about tuning out lag?..

If I'm not mistaken the 5 cyl engine can be comfortably revved beyond 7000rpm, which gives it a quite wide powerband, so if boost kicks in at 3500 or later I assume it's generally accepted by the Audi 5cyl crowd, no?

On the 944T you get very long gear ratios and the std engine runs out of breath near 6000rpm, meaning a narrow powerband, so turbo lag is always a source of discomfort.

 

[BobbyH]

Interesting food for thought Paul and TTM, thanks all.

I'm still no nearer, and there's a great looking white 928 land-shark on carsandclassic for £5500 !!

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I'm still no nearer, and there's a great looking white 928 land-shark on carsandclassic for £5500 !!

Takes me back to buying my first 944 nearly ten years ago!

There was a 928 for the same price as a 944 at 911 Virgin. To say I was tempted would be an understatement, But I was "gently" steered away from it. Unless you can DIY everything on it, a 928 will be a VERY expensive car to own.

 

[ChasR]

After owning both, I would go on the best condition car that you can get between an S2 and a Turbo.

An S2 is a smooth operator, with an almost turbine smooth power delivery (it is lovely). However, for now I have gone to the darkside and fallen for the turbo's thrills, and boy there are some present! The pace is unreal once the turbo is on song, and as Frenchy said, the booooost is addictive!

However, I still echo my first sentence. If my 951 drove like my initial S2 the reply would have been quite different! A 944 with refreshed suspension and a geometry setup is a lovely thing to drive (I am still trying to come to terms with the sheer level of grip available and the finesse with which the car handles!) and I would say is paramount to have in order to aid the driving experience, moreso than the power figures (after all, power is nothing without control...).

For your cash, I would say to satisfy the above requirements, I would buy a good S2 and spend the spare change on a suspension refresh (Even OEM stuff will be fine) and a geometry setup, if the car you are looking at does not come with it.

 

[PAUL RUDDY]

ORIGINAL: ChasR

After owning both, I would go on the best condition car that you can get between an S2 and a Turbo.

Totally agree with this, although I've never owned a turbo (lux, a 968 and 3 x S2's) the above advise is the wisest, get the best car in your budget.

Recently myself and a good friend purchased our 944's, both had a healthy budget and both kept our options open, as it turned out when we went viewing cars he ended up viewing a turbo first, and bought it, I viewed an S2 first and bought it. Had it been the other way around I doubt either of us would have been less pleased.

That said I think most of these threads are started by people who really want a Turbo but just need a nudge from other owners because deep down they know S2's are the better car ....[]

Cheers, Paul

 

[MarkK]

If you walk into Promax (Milton Keynes) and just say" Boost enhancer and chips please",your standard turbo will be a LOT better and produce 30-40 bhp more,if you walk in and say "hit me with a level 2",it will be an absolute rocket,drive in,drive out sorted[].
If you fancy tweaks like this go turbo,if you want smooth as silk and just maintenance bills go S2.
I think good turbos might need a bigger number than 5k unfortunately if you want instant fun.[]
Nice predicament to be in though,whichever you pick these cars are tanks and can provide a lifetime of fun,and they are definetley getting cooler and going up in price....[]

 

[Lowtimer]

If you only intend to spend 5K I would go for a mint Lux or a good S2 coupe, all day long. You are unlikely to find a fully-sorted Turbo for that money.

If you intend to run the car in entirely standard form then I would say the S2 is probably the best all-rounder for UK roads. A lightly modernised Turbo, however, will comfortably out-perform an S2 on anything but a very tight, poor-visibility road that the driver does not know well. In particular a good Turbo is a devastating overtaking machine.

As for the hobbling of the Turbo by the factory: no-one really knows for sure but the general impression was that for marketing reasons they were determined that the 911 Turbo needed to remain top dog, and that the 944 Turbo should be held back to equivalent performance of the normally aspirated 911 of the day (3.2 Carrera at first, then 964 C2 later). A bit of modest and relatively inexpensive fettling, on top of a mechanically sound car, does wonders for the power and torque curves without resorting to silly boost pressures.

Building on what Mark says above, I have a Promax level 2 car with the boost set at the lower level of the suitable range (1.05 bar above ambient rather than the full 1.2 bar). This gives me all the performance I want with a lot of horsepower under the curve without the need for a high peak level. It is extremely drivable and goes like a rocket anywhere between 2800 and 6200 rpm, with a margin of conservatism for long life and protection against dodgy fuel or any other potential maladies.

 

[david924s]

I had the same decision to make when I bought my S2 5 years ago I could have got a turbo for the same money at the time, however I knew if I bought the turbo I would never stop spending money on making it go faster as apart from the cost it is easily done, whereas the S2 can be made a smoother drive with a chip and K&N filter and maybe an exhaust but no real power increases so no temptation to spend what I dont have. I also think the S2 is an easier car to live with everyday as are the other NA 944s.

 

[Joss Walker]

I love my Cab! but then I would choose a convertible over a hard top any time so for me it was an easy choice, to be honest it is more of a 'lifestyle' choice than anything else.

I don't really notice any scuttle shake so it really doesn't bother me, as others have said you really need to drive them any see which you like. My everyday car is much much faster than the cab but that isn't really what it is all about because the cab is so much fun, which I think is magnified by the wind and noise when you are zipping along.

 

[TTM]

The turbo is the one to have for the sense of occasion, especially if you succumb to the siren of modifications, but that may mean the mile/£ ratio will suffer A LOT. The long gearing can be a pain on anywhere else than motorways, unless you constantly drive over the speed limits or under the car's natural pace, which may be frustrating and tiring over long journeys.

The S2 is the one to have for long and relaxed drives, although the engine is peachy enough to give some decent performance if you can forget that this engine is nearly constantly suggesting that it does not need to be revved much to go fast enough.

Drive as many as you can before making a choice.