davidcross
New member
Gordon it's interesting u mention that cat c that is to my knowledge a different prospect altogether than a cat D and has 80k miles. It also looks a bit tatty and I'd still 20k
Cat d 993s
- Thread starter davidcross
- Start date
Gordon Attar
New member
David
Cat C is a complete writeoff
Cat D is uneconomical to repair, therefore better and not so concerning which is why we were on at you ref pictures, insuarance report and inspection reports as the damage shouldnt be to bad
Cat C is a complete writeoff
Cat D is uneconomical to repair, therefore better and not so concerning which is why we were on at you ref pictures, insuarance report and inspection reports as the damage shouldnt be to bad
davidcross
New member
Yup I'm with you Gordon. All that is present I've just got to get him to accept my offer then we can use a fine comb to go thru the paperwork. All conversations so far point towards it all being in order
scaramanga
Member
Hi all, sorry to barge in but as the owner of the vehicle in question, I thought I'd throw in my 2p.
Firstly, all the views above appreciated, good and bad. Truth be told, I never thought I'd buy a CatD car myself.
Some background below, in case useful to correct some of the inaccuracies above. Not trying in any way to market the car, this is just meant to provide some factual background. So here goes...
About 6 years ago i bought my second 993 C2S, one of the best cars I've ever owned. It was an Ocean Blue car with (rare) black leather, c.41k mls when i bought it and in good general condition. Over 9-months or so, i fixed up the various bits on the car that i wasn't happy with, eventually even having a [completely unnecessary] full interior re-trim by Southbound which made the car feel brand new (and spectacular!) inside. Unfortunately, a couple of years later, I made the mistake of selling the car and regretted it almost immediately - even tried to buy it back without any success. Subsequently had some water-cooled fun for a bit but frankly it just wasn't the same.
Anyway, i kept my eye out for another good condition C2S but couldn't find anything for 9-12 months. Eventually, an interesting car came up for sale on pistonheads out in the west country:
- 1998 993 C4S (one of the last produced)
- 19k mls
- Arctic Silver / full black leather
- Extensive history file
- etc
The car was priced below comparable low-mileage cars because it had been recorded as a Category-D insurance write-off (non-economic repair). Now, i'd NEVER considered buying a Cat-registered car and just dismissed the advert and continued my search (without much joy). Eventually, i called up the seller of the 993 and spoke to him about the car's history. He sent me a series of photographs showing the accident damage (pre-repair) and was able to put me in touch with the chap who owned the car when the accident took place and the OPC tech who carried out all the work (I spoke to both and still have their numbers).
Summary of damage:
- dent on rear n/s arch
- damage to front o/s wing
- damage to front bumper (on o/s corner)
- damage to rear o/s suspension arm
- no other damage to o/s rear quarter or to front suspension (on either side) as mentioned above (?)
- no damage to doors, roof line, rear bumper, bonnet, etc
- the bonnet does sit slightly (1-1.5mm) proud where it meets the o/s front wing, in comparison to the n/s.
The chap who owned it at the time of the accident confirmed to me that it was written off on the basis of non-economic repair. Apparently, the insurance assessors who look at these situations take a number of factors into account, including the salvage value and the market value of the car. Apparently, trade publications did not accurately reflect market value for low mileage 993s in the mid 2000s and I was told that the *trade* value was estimated at around £17-19k. Anyone who has a copy of glass' guide from 2005/2006, please feel free to correct this if you think it is wrong. As the damage was reasonably limited, the salvage value of the car was above £10k, which I understand was enough to write-off the car (as the salvage value was 50-60% of the car's perceived market value). Estimated OPC repair costs + rental of executive/sports car didn't help the assessment. The owner didn't want the car back so was happy to take the settlement figure.
I did more research and discovered the 1998 car was one of the last 993's produced and was first purchased into a collection and was only driven a few hundred miles per year in its early life.
Still v sceptical (but intrigued), i went to have a look at the car - probably out of desperation at the time - but was surprised to find that it seemed to be in very good condition. The interior condition fully reflected the low mileage, the leather on the dash/seats/etc all immaculate. Mechanically it seemed fantastic, no clicking on the check-straps, no signs of corrosion anywhere, including the typical front/rear screen areas. Had a test drive and it seemed to drive perfectly, no signs that it had been damaged/repaired. Spoke to a few close friends who thought i was crazy to consider buying a Cat-registered vehicle but i figured i would have an inspection carried out (just out of curiousity). Arranged with the seller to have the car dropped off with a Crispin Manners (of the Oak Tree Garage), who some of you may know, to be inspected. The report came back with some niggles but nothing hideous. The worst issue was that some of the paintwork wasn't perfect - it had likely been painted in a body shop that wasn't fully dust-free, and a UV lamp showed some minor specs in the paint on the front o/s wing and rear n/s arch. Crispin thought mechanically the car was immaculate and suggested i not be put off (for the right money of course).
Still the sceptic, i decided to have another inspection carried out. The owner agreed for me to have the car transported closer to home where I had my regular service agent give the car a full inspection. Again, the conclusion (including road test) was v positive on the car's condition + soundness.
I bought and have now owned the car for just over 3-years, during which time it hasn't missed a beat (other than needing a new battery). I haven't had any major issues with it at all, MOTs all passed with flying colours, services carried out each year (mainly by Russell at RSR) without any issues coming up. Tony and Sean Littlejohn, who will be familiar to some of you, know the car well and did some minor sprucing up for me when I first bought it. I sought their opinion based on the pre-repair photos, before I first went down to view the car. Tony/Sean know their 993s inside out and looked after the body work on my previous blue 993 C2S.
I have a large folder of history, including all the pre-repair photos (which I showed David), previous MOTs/Services, and receipts for the parts used in the repair (mainly from Porsche Apart) as well as the painting itself.
My view has been that the D stigma disappears overs time, but there will always be some narrow-minded people (of which I used to be one!) that will refuse to even look into the history or have it inspected. Worth noting that most of the Cat C/D car's out there have no history or pre-repair pictures, which I think changes things a lot. I'd only ever consider a Cat D car (and I would consider one again) if I could see what had happened and carry out my own diligence. If I'm honest, Cat C scares me and i'd stay well away.
I have mentioned to David that I'm not 100% about selling, and have been considering a major project on the car (full colour change, RS interior, etc). Been advised by various people who have quoted me for the project that it's too nice a donor car for such a project, but as I write this message, I'm wondering if I will just go ahead with it anyway.
David, genuinely great to meet with you and your friend, always a pleasure to meet genuine fellow petrol-heads, especially when they're into their 993s! Your guards red car looks stunning (just saw the ad again). Should make a new owner very happy!!
Firstly, all the views above appreciated, good and bad. Truth be told, I never thought I'd buy a CatD car myself.
Some background below, in case useful to correct some of the inaccuracies above. Not trying in any way to market the car, this is just meant to provide some factual background. So here goes...
About 6 years ago i bought my second 993 C2S, one of the best cars I've ever owned. It was an Ocean Blue car with (rare) black leather, c.41k mls when i bought it and in good general condition. Over 9-months or so, i fixed up the various bits on the car that i wasn't happy with, eventually even having a [completely unnecessary] full interior re-trim by Southbound which made the car feel brand new (and spectacular!) inside. Unfortunately, a couple of years later, I made the mistake of selling the car and regretted it almost immediately - even tried to buy it back without any success. Subsequently had some water-cooled fun for a bit but frankly it just wasn't the same.
Anyway, i kept my eye out for another good condition C2S but couldn't find anything for 9-12 months. Eventually, an interesting car came up for sale on pistonheads out in the west country:
- 1998 993 C4S (one of the last produced)
- 19k mls
- Arctic Silver / full black leather
- Extensive history file
- etc
The car was priced below comparable low-mileage cars because it had been recorded as a Category-D insurance write-off (non-economic repair). Now, i'd NEVER considered buying a Cat-registered car and just dismissed the advert and continued my search (without much joy). Eventually, i called up the seller of the 993 and spoke to him about the car's history. He sent me a series of photographs showing the accident damage (pre-repair) and was able to put me in touch with the chap who owned the car when the accident took place and the OPC tech who carried out all the work (I spoke to both and still have their numbers).
Summary of damage:
- dent on rear n/s arch
- damage to front o/s wing
- damage to front bumper (on o/s corner)
- damage to rear o/s suspension arm
- no other damage to o/s rear quarter or to front suspension (on either side) as mentioned above (?)
- no damage to doors, roof line, rear bumper, bonnet, etc
- the bonnet does sit slightly (1-1.5mm) proud where it meets the o/s front wing, in comparison to the n/s.
The chap who owned it at the time of the accident confirmed to me that it was written off on the basis of non-economic repair. Apparently, the insurance assessors who look at these situations take a number of factors into account, including the salvage value and the market value of the car. Apparently, trade publications did not accurately reflect market value for low mileage 993s in the mid 2000s and I was told that the *trade* value was estimated at around £17-19k. Anyone who has a copy of glass' guide from 2005/2006, please feel free to correct this if you think it is wrong. As the damage was reasonably limited, the salvage value of the car was above £10k, which I understand was enough to write-off the car (as the salvage value was 50-60% of the car's perceived market value). Estimated OPC repair costs + rental of executive/sports car didn't help the assessment. The owner didn't want the car back so was happy to take the settlement figure.
I did more research and discovered the 1998 car was one of the last 993's produced and was first purchased into a collection and was only driven a few hundred miles per year in its early life.
Still v sceptical (but intrigued), i went to have a look at the car - probably out of desperation at the time - but was surprised to find that it seemed to be in very good condition. The interior condition fully reflected the low mileage, the leather on the dash/seats/etc all immaculate. Mechanically it seemed fantastic, no clicking on the check-straps, no signs of corrosion anywhere, including the typical front/rear screen areas. Had a test drive and it seemed to drive perfectly, no signs that it had been damaged/repaired. Spoke to a few close friends who thought i was crazy to consider buying a Cat-registered vehicle but i figured i would have an inspection carried out (just out of curiousity). Arranged with the seller to have the car dropped off with a Crispin Manners (of the Oak Tree Garage), who some of you may know, to be inspected. The report came back with some niggles but nothing hideous. The worst issue was that some of the paintwork wasn't perfect - it had likely been painted in a body shop that wasn't fully dust-free, and a UV lamp showed some minor specs in the paint on the front o/s wing and rear n/s arch. Crispin thought mechanically the car was immaculate and suggested i not be put off (for the right money of course).
Still the sceptic, i decided to have another inspection carried out. The owner agreed for me to have the car transported closer to home where I had my regular service agent give the car a full inspection. Again, the conclusion (including road test) was v positive on the car's condition + soundness.
I bought and have now owned the car for just over 3-years, during which time it hasn't missed a beat (other than needing a new battery). I haven't had any major issues with it at all, MOTs all passed with flying colours, services carried out each year (mainly by Russell at RSR) without any issues coming up. Tony and Sean Littlejohn, who will be familiar to some of you, know the car well and did some minor sprucing up for me when I first bought it. I sought their opinion based on the pre-repair photos, before I first went down to view the car. Tony/Sean know their 993s inside out and looked after the body work on my previous blue 993 C2S.
I have a large folder of history, including all the pre-repair photos (which I showed David), previous MOTs/Services, and receipts for the parts used in the repair (mainly from Porsche Apart) as well as the painting itself.
My view has been that the D stigma disappears overs time, but there will always be some narrow-minded people (of which I used to be one!) that will refuse to even look into the history or have it inspected. Worth noting that most of the Cat C/D car's out there have no history or pre-repair pictures, which I think changes things a lot. I'd only ever consider a Cat D car (and I would consider one again) if I could see what had happened and carry out my own diligence. If I'm honest, Cat C scares me and i'd stay well away.
I have mentioned to David that I'm not 100% about selling, and have been considering a major project on the car (full colour change, RS interior, etc). Been advised by various people who have quoted me for the project that it's too nice a donor car for such a project, but as I write this message, I'm wondering if I will just go ahead with it anyway.
David, genuinely great to meet with you and your friend, always a pleasure to meet genuine fellow petrol-heads, especially when they're into their 993s! Your guards red car looks stunning (just saw the ad again). Should make a new owner very happy!!
Gordon Attar
New member
Thanks for the update.
We got fairly close in the end with all our suppositions!
Hope our advise wasnt to annoying we just thought we were advising a fellow member.
We got fairly close in the end with all our suppositions!
Hope our advise wasnt to annoying we just thought we were advising a fellow member.
scaramanga
Member
Sorry for the Long winded post!
scaramanga
Member
Not at all Gordon, I think forums like these are incredibly valuable, especially for the variety of views and advice.
I agree with most of the comments made above and am genuinely unsure about selling. I've owned it for more than three years and it has been fantastic. Doubt I'll ever find anything with such low mileage with the potential mine has. The D doesn't bother me but that's because I've gotten to know the car. I think the advice to David to do his diligence and go into such a purchase with eyes fully open is exactly right.
Your posts in particular have been very balanced and pretty much what I would have advised myself.
Gordon Attar
New member
Thank you.
Just what the club is meant to be about despite whats going on elsewhere!
Just what the club is meant to be about despite whats going on elsewhere!
davidcross
New member
Sent u PM Nik but your inbox is full!
scaramanga
Member
Thanks for letting me know! Just made some space.
Hope the car finds a good home, bear in mind on our trip to Ivan Dutton, someone had been killed at the wheel of each and every Bugatti in their workshop, and they were worth millions. I doubt there would be any type 35s in the world if cat D was around between the wars.
Key is a decent engineers report on the car in question. But as a c4 owner, do you really need a big rear on the car? Plenty of lovely slim hipped cars around! Good luck to the potential buyer and the seller
Key is a decent engineers report on the car in question. But as a c4 owner, do you really need a big rear on the car? Plenty of lovely slim hipped cars around! Good luck to the potential buyer and the seller
scaramanga
Member
I tend to agree with you. I used to think the wide-bodied cars were the must-haves, but now I wonder if the most desirable 993 is actually a narrow-body c2 VR, manual with sports seats and a decent colour combination!!
At the end of the day, i think it's all about finding a good example at a reasonable price. I had really wanted another c2s but just couldn't find a good example for more than a year which is why I ended up going to have a look at the 4S which I eventually bought.
At the end of the day, i think it's all about finding a good example at a reasonable price. I had really wanted another c2s but just couldn't find a good example for more than a year which is why I ended up going to have a look at the 4S which I eventually bought.
Maybe if there were only 4 993's in the world, each with a racing pedigree, they would be worth millions too. However, there are currently enough good ones to choose from, so whilst supply is restricted, hence keeping demand/price high, any Cat D (or C) will always turn the majority of buyers away.
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