Cayman?

[blease]

As to your last line, John, thats why I think the Cayman will be a key product. It looks like it should live up to the sporting tag but be a lot cheaper to build than the 911. As to your other comment about Porschisti being touchy about criticism, my tin hat is firmly on but no rocks have bounced off it....yet!
Bikes. Here's my history.
FS1E
BSA Starfire
Honda CD 175 ...arrghh! (necessity)
Triumph T100
Suzuki GS750
Ducati 860 GTS
Yamaha XS 750
Moto Guzzi Le Mans Mk II....perfection but replaced in affection by 911 (aircooled).

Dream Porsche Garage.
'89 3.2 Carrera presented as '73 RS in Gulf colours.
944 Turbo with Chevy LS-1 V8 conversion.

 

[John H]

Cayman cheaper to build than 911? ... I doubt it. If you think back to the first Boxsters and 996, they were to all intents and purposes the same car, but with the engines mounted differently. There is huge commonality of parts which Porsche would rather we did not concentrate on, and this carries on today to the 987, 997 and Cayman. Even the engines are essentially the same, just with different amounts of air in the cylinder bores. I would think the build costs of a Boxster must be pretty similar to the build costs of a 997. Therefore, if a Boxster is profitable, just how profitable must a 997 Carrera be? My point being that even if there were technical reasons to kill off the rear engined line, they will continue to make it as long as there is a demand, and a substantial profit margin.

Bikes? How about this lot ... Honda Revere 600, BMW K75s, BMW R80 ST, BMW R65LS, Honda Helix, Honda VLX400, Honda Transalp 650, Harley ElectraGlide Standard, and my current bike is a Honda PC 800.

Cheers

John H

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

Blease, have you driven a boxster? before writting off the 911 into history i suggest you do so. That said the time has come when those buying new 911's have'nt a clue as to why the 911 has stayed with us for 40+ years. They have no feel for why it's different (and probably could'nt tell the difference from the Merc, bimmer or whatever they had the month before or the aston they'll have next week)and prefer to look at performance figures instead So now I guess you could be right .

 

[blease]

Hi Laurence, yes I test drove a Boxster S before going for the 996 Cab. Why did I choose the 996? Well, I don't really like the looks of the Boxster and, yes, I thought the extra seats may come in useful. How often have I used them? Perhaps 3 or 4 times in 18 months. Underlying all that is that I am a 911 nut and couldn't really countenance the idea of trading a Carrera 3.2 for a Boxster.
How was the Boxster to drive? Fast, fluid, competent but anodyne. Like driving a souped up Golf (here come the rocks!!). Is the 996 better than a Boxster? I think so, but then I'm biased. But the Cayman tickles my fancy.
I'd love to hear some qualified points about production costs but as I understand it, the costs of the Boxster are lower because the rear suspension is easier to engineer than a 996. However, the higher cost of the 996/997 probably covers this difference, so it may be an irrelevant point. I think your point about the younger generation of drivers not caring so much about the 911 legacy is well made. Maybe we should ask Colin Belton to arrange a poll on the Ninemeister website asking whether people think the arrival of the Cayman is the beginning of the end for the 911.

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

I think you've summed up all the reasons for the cayman not killing off the 911 in your first paragraph and all the reasons for why it might in the second. Also it's not the younger buyer it's the type of buyer has changed. Not tarring the enthusiasts with the same brush you understand.

 

[Rotorhead]

ORIGINAL: blease

Why did I choose the 996? Well, I don't really like the looks of the Boxster and, yes, I thought the extra seats may come in useful. How often have I used them? Perhaps 3 or 4 times in 18 months.

For many, especially the key 30 to 50 age group with kids, the 2+2 configuration is the 911's USP.

There's a huge choice of 2-seater coupes and convertibles and a huge choice of hi-performance saloons, but no one has yet matched the 911's 'complete' packaging - still the world's most practical supercar..

The 911's rear seating was significantly improved for the 996/997 Coupe, but the Cab's rear seats are still quite compromised owing to the hood location.

 

[Michael Downing]

ORIGINAL: oliver
For many, especially the key 30 to 50 age group with kids, the 2+2 configuration is the 911's USP.

There's a huge choice of 2-seater coupes and convertibles and a huge choice of hi-performance saloons, but no one has yet matched the 911's 'complete' packaging - still the world's most practical supercar..

The 911's rear seating was significantly improved for the 996/997 Coupe, but the Cab's rear seats are still quite compromised owing to the hood location.

Seconded.

The Cab's seats are indeed compromised, being ideally suited to someone in the 6-8 year old range. Which suits me perfectly. []

 

[THX911]

Also any new cutting-edge technology will first end up in 911s and then trickle down to Cayman and then Boxster... For example the new Boxster still doesn't offer VarioCam Plus (Just VarioCam)...
Not quite up to date with new sports car tech but things like DSG gearbox will no doubt make the debut on the 911s

 

[Mark_Bennett]

The Salesman's perspective - from some American Website I've not seen before!
--> LINK <--

Front Line: Will the Porsche Cayman Steal Sales from the 911?

We turn to Kirk Stingle, uber-salesman for Inskip Porsche of Rhode Island. According to Captain Kirk, the Cayman is not a 911-killer. "A buyer who goes for a new 911 buys it to say he's got a 911. From an ego standpoint, he's got to have the best of the best." Even so, Kirk admits the Cayman's got a lot of people confused"” including him. "The car's got to find its market," Stingle says. "It's shuffling our buyers around a bit." For example, Kirk sees the Cayman's mid-60's price luring customers away from pre-owned previous gen 911's that fall in the $50k to $70k range; or tempting owners of older 993/996 to "trade up" to a new Cayman. Kirk figures either eventuality is not a threat to Big Daddy Carrera"¦ at the moment. "There's not a lot of anything around right now," Kirk says, revealing that Inskip's lot is 911 coupe-less. "So customers are not facing the choice of a 911 or a Cayman on the showroom floor. If the guys in the older 911's trade-in for a Cayman, that'll help us, not hurt us."

Meanwhile, Kirk reports that the Cayman is generating conquest sales from other marques, especially 3-Series and "˜Vette owners. Displaying the kind of informed honesty that makes Captain Kirk a living legend in Little Rhody and beyond, he warns all his customers not to over-spec the Cayman and encroach on 911 territory. "Keep it clean: 19" wheels, sports steering wheel, heated seats, short shifter. Remember: once you're over 60k, you're getting close to the price of an entry level 911. You won't see that extra money back."

 

[garyandjanet]

Wish words

 

[blease]

Of course, this is Clarkson's argument about the Boxster...that to own one is to admit that you can't stump up for a 911. However, we have yet to see the Panamerica in the flesh, which is the hard place next to the Cayman rock for the 911 concept. I guess it all depends how lardy and non-sporty the Panamerica is. Nice pictures though. Has anyone seen the Porche Cayman website that has it whizzing along in a tunnel and you can view it from all angles and zoom in and out? Yummy!

 

[Guest]

Seems a lively thread to put my oar in. You see guys there is a time and place to drive ANY porsche. I am with you all, but if your need is to put golf clubs in a car and you want a modern Porsche than the Cayman is great!!! Having said that a 928 GTS wouldn't go a miss either!!! 911's are great, like Lawrence says no car can stick around for 40 years and not be great. Then again ever taken out a BoxsterS on a sunny day round a few windy roads with a beautiful woman sitting next to you , listening to the Who song , Who are you! If not ..... you haven't lived!!!

Anyway we are on the list for a Cayman , my wife will have one if she likes it or not.

Good luck with everyone and their cars, and hey like Geoff997 says we all love Porsche's , early 911's to Cayman's to 997's. Hmmm , I need to find more garages!!!

Johannes

ALLL Round Porsche nutter

 

[m bannon]

You may be right to go for the caymen...........the continued dropping value of the 996 !!!!.

 

[Guest]

Porsche won't kill the 911. It is hugely profitable, comes out top in all the reviews, and has a fair amount of life left yet.
It is good business for them to broaden the range. The 911's share of their shipments may fall, but I don't see it dying any time soon.
As long as they ship enough to keep it viable then it will continue.
The only real reason I see for it to die, is if the format becomes uncompetitive in racing, as I've mentioned before. It is the platform for racing at the moment and in the foreseable future, so it will attract buyers. When it is not the platform for racing, then it may face more of a challenge, since it will just be trading on nostalgia.

What may happen as a result of broadening their offerings, is the large number of variants may be reduceed. Do we need C2, C4, C2S, C4S, C2 cab, C4 cab, C4S cab, Turbo, Turbo cab, Turbo S, Turbo S cab, GT3, GT3 RS, GT2?
They will have to rationalise this, which is good.

The Panamera will be the mile muncher, with comfort and GT credentials. This should leave the 911 to become more hardcore. Which is good.

The Boxster is, to quote Porsche, "a lifestyle" car.
The Cayman is in a curious niche, but if it looks like causing any problems, they will limit the production numbers.

The one thing that a 911 does that nothing else can, is have awesome traction.
This advantage makes up for the other disadvantages of the design. It also provides a unique driving experience, which is what sells, and gives that elusive character that all manufacturers look for.
A front engined car will not beat it for desirability.
The Panamera will depreciate hard, like the large front engined Ferraris.

 

[MikeO]

Two unrelated thoughts -
1) The Cayman may damage residuals of early 996s (like mine) more than the Boxster ever could (because it's a coupe and the marketing is that it's the driver's choice)

2) I wonder what the profit margin on each model is; the extra price of the 911 was always a lot more than the extra build cost over the Boxster, I bet the Cayman's actually cheaper to build than the Boxster.

 

[mikfinch]

More doom and gloom on the 996 residual front then. I cant see new 911 buyers going for a Cayman instead because the markets price points are too far apart but for prospective used 996 buyers its a different story. If you've got £50k to splash on a Porsche, a brand new specced up Cayman S looks awful tempting against a 2-3yr old 996, not to mention probably being a better residual bet as well.

 

[blease]

Interesting point about racing prowess being a potential saviour of the 911 Stuart. I'm not sure I totally buy into the argument if only because Porsche Board have shown utter disdain for racing heritage with their long withdrawal from Le Mans. Admittedly this was hard decision as they had to find a way of affording a new product range but it shows that, when push comes to shove, the bean counters win over the sporting division. Porsche has evolved away from a sports car manufacturer into a car manufacturer (maybe for good??). I think the traction argument is a better one because it does give the car a unique feel and, in the words of Andrew Frankel in his Sunday Times review of the Cayman, its unique challenge. But will this hold water when the Cayman/Panamera combination is available. The other point about market forces may well be the ultimate answer. For every passionate 911 fan who posts on here, how many uncaring users are there out there who drive the car just because of the badge? I suspect we are in an increasing minority as Porsche evolves into a volume manufacturer.

 

[John H]

ORIGINAL: blease

The other point about market forces may well be the ultimate answer. For every passionate 911 fan who posts on here, how many uncaring users are there out there who drive the car just because of the badge? I suspect we are in an increasing minority as Porsche evolves into a volume manufacturer.

You got it in a nuthshell there mate!

JH

 

[blease]

John,
Seems like we share a wavelength!
911 forever!

 

[John Sims]

Something else that was noted in the Sunday Times review was the disdain of the designers that Porsche AG Marketing Dept wouldn't allow a LSD in the Cayman as otherwise it would be quicker than a 997 around the twisty bits. Ring any bells of 20 years ago when the potential of the 951 had to be reeled in just in case it overshadowed the 930?[:-]

The fact that Porsche has created another black sheep is excellent news. As with the 951 their residuals will probably be pretty poor so prices will drop sufficiently for Caymans to be available for enthusiasts and tunners. I'm looking forward to buying myself a second hand Cayman for my 50th Birthday. By then I might have explored the full potential of the 951 and cheap 911 bashing upgrades will be readilly available for the Cayman. At last, another Porsche I can look forward to owning. []