Chris W's article in PP

[Laurence Gibbs]

Just thought i'd say how much I enjoyed Chris W's article on his 993 RS and the potted history within. I thought it a most interesting and entertaining read. Thanks Chris.
I guess in years to come Herr Weideking's reign will be studied in depth. Good or bad is a matter of personal view I guess. Yes he bought in "Kaizen" styles of working and reduced the cost of making the cars at a stroke. But can we say he made better more reliable cars because of it, or did he just build cheaper cars? That the 993 was Saviour to the company I think there is little doubt. But I think the 964 wasn't the problem. I think time and tide changed perceptions. The late 80's early 90's was the end of the "Yuppie" era and something of a Porsche backlash. As things started to pick up again, so did Porsche sales. It's notable that perceptions of the cars today are somewhat different to that of the testers of the time.

 

[h_____]

Indeed. A very interesting article, and documents the car well!

Laurence, I cant help but comment on your last line. I assume you are referring to the fact that in the day the 964 RS was considered too stiff for the road, but that later many more cars showed the same stiffness on road cars, and that a further 5 or so years down the line and the 964 RS would not have received "bad" reviews for being stiff.

It is interesting how this goes, as modern cars now appear to be more on the compliant side again. Looking at modern spec RS and the like, they all come with aircon, stereos, and other electric items usually not found in stripped out lightweights. It would seem that the number of people who really want a stripped out racer for the road is actually very few. Those that do, are prepared to use the car as a track car only, and thus get tempted by the niche market cars that cover this (atom, radical etc). Others who want a competent trackday car, but want it to be usable on the road are looking for some creature comforts added back in. And it seems cars of this spec sell well. Well whats 150kgs if you easily have 100 more BHP, and you are only doing a few trackdays a year.

It strikes me that the modern RSs are further from the Cup car or RSR then ever. Although I guess it could be argued the other way around, that old cup cars were much more like the road car equivalent, and that the technology was not available to offer good compromises ("sport" mode, variable rate springs, damping etc).

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

Yes and i was generalizing about the 964 family really. What people criticized about the 964 C2 , C4 and RS when new was mostly about the harshness and road noise generated by the rear suspension (mainly). Now these mark the car out as more involving and more "connected" compared to the newer models with their revised rear ends !

 

[jason]

Porsche backlash?? Massive recession more like - not sure the model had anything to do with it.

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

"Backlash" as in and to somewhat quote Clarkson "Porsche enthusiasts had stopped buying Porsche because they didn't want to be thought of as yuppies" ! The recession was what ended the yuppie era! Maybe not entirely true but probably not far short. People weren't buying Porsche. And the 80's image didn't help.

 

[PhilRS]

And the expansion of the trackday market, together with the existence of relatively cheap race cars (e.g. CUPs), have also created more options.

With creative suspension technology, "race cars for the road" do not need to be as compromised as they were in the early to late '90s.

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

Yes agreed. But i can't help thinking a stripped to the bone Cayman RS would fly out the showroom. Boxster Spyder again doing well with the minimalist theme!

 

[h_____]

I'm not sure, a real pure stripped out Cayman RS (aka 964 NGT) only makes sense for club racing. Otherwise to ensure volume sales, I think it still needs some comfort options added back in, as the general trackday market want something that is nearly there, but not quite as raw as it looks.

Boxster Spyder is as close as it will get, and yet still they didnt do it on the cayman chassis! Too fast and too much race potential perhaps?

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

I think Cayman Clubsport rather than RS(they'll reserve that moniker for the 911) are definitely on the cards. Just a question of when rather than if. They did the same with the 968 and that sold well enough. Remember Volume not really an issue here. More likely to be sold on a premium limited edition basis. Which helps make the numbers add up. People are prepaired to pay more for a hard topped cayman when they can have the soft top cheaper. They'll pay for the less is more premise of a clubsport just as easily.

 

[jason]

ORIGINAL: Laurence Gibbs

"Backlash" as in and to somewhat quote Clarkson "Porsche enthusiasts had stopped buying Porsche because they didn't want to be thought of as yuppies" ! The recession was what ended the yuppie era! Maybe not entirely true but probably not far short. People weren't buying Porsche. And the 80's image didn't help.

totally disagree with Clarkson as he is clueless when it comes to serious economic factors. Yes there was a yuppie association in the Lawson boom but that was apparant on all collector cars. The fact that all big supercar manufacturers got into trouble is more to do with largest worldwide recession for a long time, rising unemployment, rising inflation, rising interest rates, collapse of us savings Market, uk exit from erm, collapsing house prices etc etc

basically the people who could afford new porsches previously couldn't anymore, whether they were enthusiasts or not.

The 996 and boxster saved Porsche as a business

 

[Melv]

ORIGINAL: Laurence Gibbs

Yes agreed. But i can't help thinking a stripped to the bone Cayman RS would fly out the showroom.

Like this?

http://www.pasionporsche.com/component/content/article/28-ultimas-noticias/345-cayman-interseries-usa.html

 

[h_____]

ORIGINAL: Melv

ORIGINAL: Laurence Gibbs

Yes agreed. But i can't help thinking a stripped to the bone Cayman RS would fly out the showroom.

Like this?

http://www.pasionporsche.com/component/content/article/28-ultimas-noticias/345-cayman-interseries-usa.html

Yes! That looks like its the real deal - I wonder how lap times compare to an 911? I think Porsche learnt with the 968 not to pitch it against the 911, thats why we dont see motorsport derived cars from the cheaper models. They want to you race 911s!!

If a race spec Cayman could get within a sec of a gt3 derived car for say 1/2 the cost - whats in it for Porsche? Best left to the club scene really.

The boxster spyder is a great marketing model, it gives buyers who want a focussed mid/low tier platform in lwt spec a model to pic, with out threatening the 911.

And as good as the boxster spyder is, it isnt a lotus 2eleven is it? And thats we would like to see!

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

Not race spec but clubsport or nearly ready to race would sell. It wouldn't be about going quicker or getting close to the 911's times. It would be about a cheaper(against GT3 prices) and different trackday toy. People still race 924's, they don't particularly care if they are not as quick , they are a different beast as is the Cayman. We've not seen motorsport derived cars from the latest water cooled models at all with the exception of the GT3 whose engine does not have the same block as the rest. That alone is the reason for a lack of motorsport derivatives.And why they built the Boxster spyder as they knew this was more aimed as a road car. Cast your mind back to beyond the M96 engine variants and you'll remember the 924 GT, 924 turbo, 944 turbo RS , 968 clubsport etc. None of which were built to be 911 competitors.
That's got to change me thinks. There are already a number of private companies beginning to tap into any potential the newer engines have.
Jason i agree . There is no doubt the recession killed off sales. But I don't think the mud stuck to other collectors cars half as well as it did to Porsche. How many times do you see lads in stripe suits and red 3.2 carreras in the background when TV shows try to depict the era ! That image stuck around for a while. Aided and abetted by the media . And it must have hurt sales.

 

[Melv]

....................lads in stripe suits and red 3.2 Carreras...............

That Cohen lad gets around.....[]

 

[ChrisW]

Computer mended, I'm back []

'Glad you liked the 993RS article, thanks Laurence []

--- Yes Jason I agree, the Kaizen cost saving process with the 993 was a fist in the dam wall, but the process was established just in time to capitalise from the second stage --- which established the Boxster as a high volume low cost route to minimising the production costs, of the then even higher margin 996 []

From the front you could hardly tell the difference, genius.

Interesting that the 987 and 997 are now much more different cars ....

Caymen Clubsport, maybe, but Steve Rance reckons that the GT3 is a much better car, and has proven to be so in various race series.

And when a GT3 MkI or MkII can be had for far less than a Caymen CS, why wouldn't you go for the old GT1 block ??

P.S. Anybody recognise any of the names I couldn't find ?

 

[PhilRS]

BTW, are you aware that the French run a proper Cayman Cup series? I read an article on this a while back in Flat 6. Caymans are stripped down and developed by a French outfit for a proper Cayman Cup series.

http://www.club-porsche-france.org/photos/thumbnails.php?album=177

 

[Melv]

And here:

http://www.pasionporsche.com/component/content/article/28-ultimas-noticias/345-cayman-interseries-usa.html

NB I flagged this up on the Cayman forum and not one single comment ....I rest my case.

PS Chris -enjoyed the in depth article -cld u PM me list of what u think names poss are -may recognize some and have some contacts to forward to.

 

[h_____]

ORIGINAL: Melv

And here:

http://www.pasionporsche.com/component/content/article/28-ultimas-noticias/345-cayman-interseries-usa.html

NB I flagged this up on the Cayman forum and not one single comment ....I rest my case.

I'm surprised there isnt more interest!

I cant help but think think that a car that could produce 80% of the performance for 50% of the price in Motorsport circles would be a bad thing for Porche. Look how well Ginetta is doing with in GT racing! Now imagine that was a true prep'd Cayman......

 

[timarnold]

ORIGINAL: h_____
And as good as the boxster spyder is, it isnt a lotus 2eleven is it? And thats we would like to see!

What they should do in that case H is bring out a modern version of the 908 Spyder! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_908 650kg, 370bhp, that'll do! LOL

Oddly enough someone thinks the Lotus 211 is very similar: http://www.teamspeed.com/forums/aston-martin-jaguar-lotus/28140-2010-lotus-exige-cup-260-a.html (scroll down to the picture of a 211) "I would repaint it Gulf Blue and Orange since it looks so much like a Porsche 908/03 Spyder."

[]

 

[timarnold]

ORIGINAL: h_____
I'm surprised there isnt more interest!

I cant help but think think that a car that could produce 80% of the performance for 50% of the price in Motorsport circles would be a bad thing for Porche. Look how well Ginetta is doing with in GT racing! Now imagine that was a true prep'd Cayman......

Isn't it always going to be a dilemma for Porsche that cars such as the Boxter/Cayman could knock the 911 off its pedestal if they outperformed or even got close to it? And theoretically, if you gave one equivalent power it would be a quicker car as it has a better balance because of it's mechanical layout. Modern 911's only work as well as they do because the boffins at Porsche have developed technology to batter the laws of physics into submission. But there must eventually come a point where they lose that battle and a better balanced chassis with the engine in the right place will prove to be more desireable?

A good example could be the Club Championship, where the car to beat is the 968. It is quicker than equivalent 911's(964's) simply because it is the better handling car.