Coilover kit for 944 Racing

[PKR944]

Hi All,

New to this sort of thing. I live in Australia and have recently purchased a 1983 944 to setup for racing. I have been looking at getting a set of coilovers and deleting the torsion bars from the rear. I have had a look at the GAZ Gold and they look to be great value for money. I just wanted to ask around to find out if anyone has raced with that setup and what they are like. Not fussed about how they ride on the street as this will be dedicated for the track. The only real restriction we have for the suspension is that we are not allowed to have coilovers that run a separate canister.

What other sort of options would you recommend to try to keep to a tighter budget?

Thanks,
Paul

 

[Neil Haughey]

All of the EMC built racing 944 and 968's for the past couple of seasons or so run on GAZ coilovers, prior to GAZ I believe they used Leda who have a connection to GAZ in that I believe some of the senior staff from Leda moved to GAZ. Others know the history of what happened between the 2 companies much better than me.

What this means is that in Future Classics my car, the Pete Morris/Alex Eacock (EMC) car, MarkK's car and probably all the other 944's all run on GAZ remote reservoir coilovers. In the PCGB Championship its probably half the front engined cars as some of them seem to run White Power or whatever I haven't taken to much attention as its similar remote reservoir stuff only several times the price. Whatever anyone else uses though the Pete Morris 968 set the fastest lap at Castle Combe this year which as a track is a pretty good test of a cars suspension.

One thing I would say to be aware of though is the damper valving. EMC have their own valving spec developed for our cars which is not the same as other suppliers of GAZ kits. Personally if building my car again I would without doubt have bought an already developed kit from them rather than where I am now which is trying to get what I have setup and developed properly. Its highly likely for example that the shocks will be sent back in to get the valves replaced with the EMC ones.

 

[944 man]

Further to what Neil has said - the GGA kit only has a helper spring you cant delete the torsion bar using it. I wouldnt myself though, even if you could. The torsion bar adds more than springing to the rear suspension and cars that run without them seem to have many problems.

The remote reservoir kit is much better than the Gold kit, but it costs about three times as much. It adds bump and rebound damping over a simple combined adjuster, but Im not sure whether you can use it without the torsion bars either.


Simon

 

[Neil Haughey]

I don't know of anyone running without torsion bars. Doesn't mean that someone isn't but AFAIK everyone retains them. Apart from anything else one of the reasons to delete them is to save weight but for something like PCGB club championship it would be silly as the weight is low down in the car and near to the centre. My own car for example with me in it would be only a few Kg over the minimum limit even with a stock exhaust (very heavy) and complete headlights including pop up assembly, heater box etc. etc.

Anyways if one is worried about lack of mounting rigidity on the big bush in there you could I guess fit 924 torsion bars? as these would be the thinnest.

 

[944 man]

No torsion bars = Americans (= anecdotal evidence only, of course).

 

[333pg333]

I ran for some years with my KWs and torsion bars. Have deleted them about 6 months ago while increasing springs front and rear. Went from 630/710 (inc torsion bars) to 800/900 without. Have had no issues to date. I like the ability to be able to swap springs more easily depending on the track we're on.

PKR, I assume you are in Melbourne and going to run in the 944 challenge, or is this for Porsche Club Sprints only? Seems like the racers in this forum have moved from KWs to GAZ as their preferred supplier with good results. I would still consider KWs if you can't run remotes. Exceptional ride quality over the rough stuff.

 

[PKR944]

I just want to say thankyou to everyone for the information. I am going to run the car in the 944 Challenge in Melbourne.
I am unable to run coilovers with a remote reservoir. Would the GAZ Gold be enough for the car without the remote reservoir for racing? I have been advised by a few of the guys racing here that they all have removed the torsion bars apart from one or two of the cars that are racing. If I purchase the GAZ Gold and run with the torsion bars still in the car. If I end up removing the torsion bars would it be as easy just upping the spring rate on the rear coilovers to compensate.

Thanks,
Paul

 

[Big Dave]

If you cant run the remote reservoir stuff then, THE only option in my eyes is the Bilstein Escort cup kit. VERY VERY good kit....
Its what the original Porsche racers used back when there was a one make series.
It doesnt have any means of adjustment, [apart from spring rates],but then again you dont need it as its great "out of the box".

 

[Neil Haughey]

That is interesting Dave as the Bilsteins are still decent value for money. Didn't you run KW v3 on your 968 though? how comes you rate them 3rd behind the GAZ and Bilstein solutions?

BTW something to add which Dave has said to me before and is my own experience now as well with the GAZ shocks is just how big an effect each adjustment makes. I don't have the EMC valve set in mine but only a couple of clicks still makes a big difference taking the car from a pitching horrible mess to a solid stable handling car.

 

[Big Dave]

Neil.
Not quite sure how you come to the conclusion the KW,V3,s are 3rd in my opinions.???
The poster mentioned he cant run remote res stuff. [Is this beacuse of race regs.?],,So,,,There realy only one option in this instance. The Bilsteins...

Yes i did have the V3,s fitted to my car for some time + very good they were too.
I just wanted to "step up" the track nature of the car . It is now at a point where its not realy a road car anymore...Too harsh...[It has the GAZ [EMC valved kit fitted]] Although it still has a full interior, and all the creature comforts of a 968 Sport...
In fact , "shamless punn" im contemplating selling the 968 , So if anybody is after a VERY VERY VERY,well sorted car, please PM me for details...If the right figures are offered it might just go to a new home...[][]

 

[PKR944]

Here is an extract from the copy of the Technical Specs for the cars covering suspension.

8 Suspension and Steering
8.1 Front Suspension: The control arm inner pivot/mounting position may not be relocated.
Stub axles and hubs must remain standard.
8.2 Rear Suspension: Control arms must be standard, but may be of either factory alloy
or steel variants. The damper mounting point and spring seat on the steel arms may be
modified to match those of the alloy arm. The control arm and spring plate
pivot/mounting points must remain as standard. The spring plate must remain standard.
8.3 Suspension Dampers: Canister adjustable shock absorbers are not permitted.
8.4 Suspension Bushes: Elastomeric suspension bushes may be replaced with mechanically
identical elastomeric bushes. The functional volume of the elastomer component must
be at least 90% of the equivalent volume of the original bushing.
8.5 MacPherson strut top mounts: Must be as standard.
8.6 Suspension brace: No additional suspension brace between the suspension top
mounts is allowed.
8.7 Anti-sway bars: The anti-sway bars may not be adjustable by the driver seated in the
normal driving position.
8.8 Wheel Alignment: The maximum permitted front wheel castor angle is 3°.
8.9 Wheel track: Maximum Front 1500mm
Maximum Rear 1480mm
(See CAMS Manual for measurement method)
Wheelbase: Maximum 2400 mm

Hope this helps with understanding the requirements here.

Thanks,
Paul

 

[Paz]

Big Dave, I knew the day would come when you'd seriously consider selling the 968.

A nicely developed car dude, I sincerely hope you get decent money for it []

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: PKR944

Here is an extract from the  copy of the Technical Specs for the cars covering suspension.

8 Suspension and Steering
8.3 Suspension Dampers: Canister adjustable shock absorbers are not permitted.

Hope this helps with understanding the requirements here.

Thanks,
Paul

Sounds to me like no remote reservoir shocks allowed. Looks like Bilsteins then.

 

[333pg333]

Still not sure why it has to be the Bilsteins just because no remotes are allowed?? I've never run on the Escort Cups but from what I've gathered they were good....in their day. Sure, they'd be cheaper than the KWs, but nobody has mentioned budget yet. Plus they ride much harsher than the KWs. I would still go the KWs before the Escort Cups based on Aussie tracks not being Snooker table smooth. The KWs are going to handle the bumps better than the B/Cups. The 944 Challenge is probably our most competitive Porsche racing series down here (Although Cup cars are coming back in 2011). Any possible legal advantage over the other guys should be looked at in my book.

 

[944 man]

As with every other racing series: see what works for others before spending your own money.

 

[sawood12]

Unless they have dropped in price the Bilstein Escort cups were not that much cheaper than KW's when I was looking into suspension options 5 or so years ago. The general consensus was that the Escort Cups were very primitive even by other non-KW options. Back then the options seemed to be either Leda or KW.

 

[PKR944]

I have done some searching on KW's and the clubsport and V3's both have canisters. Is there a specific model that does has the adjustment without the extra canister?

 

[Big Dave]

Unless KW have changed the V3,s recently. They dont come with remote canisters. Well the European versions dont anyway....
Just out of interest. Whats all the other cars / drivers using.?
Im not saying follow the crowd, but its a good indication of what works..

Just another point about the Bilsteins.
The car / driver that won class one in Porsche club this year was using them...It may have been a 964, but it still speaks volumes about the quality of the kit. No messing around with settings.

Surely if the KW,s were that good then all the front engined cars on the race grid would be using them....The fact that non of them were speaks for itself.
Personally i think there very good for a road / track biased car, but not for a full on race car...

If you realy must have the KW,s, and want to adjust the suspension for different tracks,, then considder this.
The rear rebound adjustment is critical on these cars , [It helps to stop the car pitching forward under heavy braking,] and thats THE one adjustment that is VERY VERY difficult to access when the rear shock is attatched to the car. In most cases you need to drop the rear shock down then "fiddle" with the adjuster then bolt the top of the shock back in the car...
This was another reason i swapped my KW for the remote res GAZ kit. Ease of adjustment.
Just want to make you aware of all the "challenges" that you may find...

 

[Neil Haughey]

Very true Dave, been there done that with regards rear rebound. I have my non EMC valved rear GAZ units turned up to almost full hard on rebound however you have to be careful as it can make the car a bit too lively when braking into bumpy or tricky braking zones. Its one of those and another type things I think you can get away with the smoother the driver is. However to adjust them each one is a 10 second job, easily done in the pits during a test session.

 

[lali]

GAZ also do a non remote resevoir kit... as fittd to my 924. More than capable on track, full hard is firmer than the KW V3's full had but softer than the race GAZ kit.

That GAZ kit is also very keenly priced.