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ORIGINAL: dazzpowder

Hey Okkellyt, would I get much more from the Revo map if I added the OPC sports exhaust? I thought the exhaust was more of a soundtrack unless married to the X51 Kit.

Dazzpower

As per Gary's comment - the sports exhaust is a welcome aural addition to the car but does not increase the power output, either on the stock car or the x51.

Revo Stage 1 is a straight remap of the ECU. Revo stage 2 for a normally aspirated engine is only in conjunction with the Milltek high performance low back pressure sports exhaust (100 or 200 cells).

A stage 1 remap gives you 15-25hp, generally about 18 -22 for a Porsche and about 10lbft torque. The Stage 2 gets you approx 30bhp but ups the torque significantly - it also gets the extra torque/power from much lower down the rev range so the performance is more accessible.
 
Having looked on the Revo website they do not quote figures for the DFI engine only the gen1?

And if porsche charge well over 8k for power kit that lifts bhp by about 20bhp and has to modify the cylinder heads install a new intake manifold and remap the ECU how can others claim to do the same with a laptop and 600 quid?

I'm a bit of a sceptic when it comes to remapped n/a engines.
 
I'd guess that the Porsche map is very much conservative and made for many countries with different requirements to the UK.. so an 'overall setting'
I think the remap take advantage of that...


garyw
 

ORIGINAL: Wills

Having looked on the Revo website they do not quote figures for the DFI engine only the gen1?

And if porsche charge well over 8k for power kit that lifts bhp by about 20bhp and has to modify the cylinder heads install a new intake manifold and remap the ECU how can others claim to do the same with a laptop and 600 quid?

I'm a bit of a sceptic when it comes to remapped n/a engines.
 
As per Gary's hint - Porsche produce one set of ECU mapping code to cover all their cars globally. Including 91 RON with solid bits of sugar cane floating in it from south America (I kid you not, I've seen it 1st hand).

Secondly the car needs tuning for emissions control as a priority over performance and economy.

Most of the quality re-map companies optimise the car for European Fuel 98 and 95 RON which instantly gives a power lift. The remaps need a minimum of 95 RON to work. Then tune for performance over emissions or economy. A 20hp gain is after all only a 5% Power gin for a Gen1 C2S.

Having made various changes to my car and dynoed them (giving a pessimistic power figure) the gains can be real. Choosing the right re-map and associated components are key. With changes to the induction, Exhaust and remap I am running a minimum of +53bhp over stock on my car, rated on a dyno in a controlled environment (so the car is relatively starved of air). Of that the Revo Remap (stage 2) and Milltek exhaust provided 30bhp.

I don't think Revo or DMS have brought out their product for DFI yet. In theory there is greater room for tuning based on timing and size of injected fuel into the cylinders alongside optimsiing fuel type and compromise versus emissions and economy.
 
Does anyone know what DMS charge for a remap on a 997 Turbo these days ?

I'm only merely contemplating it at the moment as I'm more than happy with the performance I'm getting now, but you know how it goes, if it's available, then it would be rude not to at some stage !

I've had a BMW 535D Msport done by DMS and can confirm that it did transform the car into a missile, well for an oil burner anyway, 343bhp and 506lb torque isn't to be sniffed at !
 
ORIGINAL: okellyt


ORIGINAL: Wills

Having looked on the Revo website they do not quote figures for the DFI engine only the gen1?

And if porsche charge well over 8k for power kit that lifts bhp by about 20bhp and has to modify the cylinder heads install a new intake manifold and remap the ECU how can others claim to do the same with a laptop and 600 quid?

I'm a bit of a sceptic when it comes to remapped n/a engines.
As per Gary's hint - Porsche produce one set of ECU mapping code to cover all their cars globally. Including 91 RON with solid bits of sugar cane floating in it from south America (I kid you not, I've seen it 1st hand).

Secondly the car needs tuning for emissions control as a priority over performance and economy.

Most of the quality re-map companies optimise the car for European Fuel 98 and 95 RON which instantly gives a power lift. The remaps need a minimum of 95 RON to work. Then tune for performance over emissions or economy. A 20hp gain is after all only a 5% Power gin for a Gen1 C2S.

Having made various changes to my car and dynoed them (giving a pessimistic power figure) the gains can be real. Choosing the right re-map and associated components are key. With changes to the induction, Exhaust and remap I am running a minimum of +53bhp over stock on my car, rated on a dyno in a controlled environment (so the car is relatively starved of air). Of that the Revo Remap (stage 2) and Milltek exhaust provided 30bhp.

I don't think Revo or DMS have brought out their product for DFI yet. In theory there is greater room for tuning based on timing and size of injected fuel into the cylinders alongside optimsiing fuel type and compromise versus emissions and economy.

Sorry I wasn't doubting the power benfits of the mods you have made I was talking about a stand alone remap.

And I still think its the emperors new clothes, 200 cell cats yes they make a difference as do more efficient intakes and headers etc....then you remap to opitimise.

But I'm still not buying that a remap alone gives you 20bhp. We had this on the M3 forum with guys getting their M3's mapped with the promise of 20bhp turning up and saying they had CSL power, they were really just kinding themselves with very optimistic read outs.

But each to his own.
 
ORIGINAL: garyw

This looks like the start of a Register Dyno day......

garyw

LOL! [:D]

Don't get me wrong power is available with the kind of mods that Tom has made I'm not questioning that.

But a stand alone remap producing 20bhp on an engine that can already detect and react to differing fuel grades? Our cars are designed to be run on 98ron in the first instance (so the hand book says) so I don't buy the low grade fuel mapping argument.

Now I'd love to be proved wrong as I would have it done tomorrow if it works. [:D]


Neil

 
Neil,

Good points and well argued [:D]

Different views are what makes the on line posting community such fun

I am a bit of a cynic too - very mistrusting of tuners claims until I see the evidence.

One definitely needs to research the car and its potential first and then look carefully at the supposed beneficial tweaks

I wasn't convinced so the first time I dyno'd the car I got figures with the remap settings on standard and optimized for the Porsche. The difference 22bhp. I have the graph. Conversely the exhaust change to Milltek was estimated to about 8bhp gain on its own, no where near some of the claims I have sen for that product (as you rightly say its the combination of changes that gets the bigger gains).

The is a second side to my cynicism - the manufacturer. If Porsche made the best performing car it terms of BHP and track times it could for the price point of each car at the expense of all other considerations. I'd agree with you that little gains could be found by tuners.

However these cars are made to a budget and most (bar the GT2/3) are a compromise between practicality, comfort, safety and performance - take for example the standard set up of the cooking C2/4/S is tuned for under steer so if a granny drives it down to the shops she won't kill herself and no one gets sued. The famous RMS issue, which can be cured by changing the 50 pence standard unit for one costing approx £12, funnily enough Porsche did not fit this to their cars from new. The air intake/induction boxes on most cooking models strangle the engine and reduce the cars performance. However they are reliable, protect the engine, fairly robust in a wide variety of climates and conditions and above all very cheap to make. You can buy much more efficient induction systems but have to choose between certain compromises and they cost a lot more.

The same is true with the software and software tweaks. A manufacturer has all sorts of regulations it has to comply with and aims for one superset of code for all markets. To protect themselves legally they will apply standards above those of the worst restrictions from certain countries - The after market tuner is not so heavily regulated and is allowed much more freedom in setting the parameters they'd like to use. So you'd argue these would be the settings Porsche would use as a default, if they were allowed to but they aren't.

In reality its the torque gains and the revs the gains happen at that make the biggest difference to how the car feels on the road. Your example of the M3 vs CSL, the guys might well have been getting the same hp but at the cost of less torque lower down the rev range, making the car slower on the road not faster.....So on a Millbrook Mile they might get good 0 -100 times but might still get mugged by a well driven 330i on the road....[8D]

So long and short of it - you pays your money and takes your chock ice - remaps work for some people and not for others. You may get gains from them but for an N/A car its of the order of 5% power hike, give or take. But mainly it improves throttle response, drive ability and feels quicker. So depending how you like your car to drive, its worth the money or it isn't. And be wary of really high power figure claims, its normally wishful thinking or at the expense of other important factors.

 
I agree with most of what you say Tom, I have remapped turbo cars in the past (with good results) and upgraded to Miltek on my e92 M3 and that gave it a wonderful sound but no power increase using the "seat of your pants yardstick" (despite the tuner putting my car on the dyno and claiming an extra 10bhp, it simply couldn't be felt on the road)

You are so right when you talk about how a car feels its response to thottle inputs etc, rather than looking at a dyno chart and saying look more power!

I've looked at the Porsche powerkit graphs and the gains in overall engine peformance look good, I really like the last 1000rpm where at present my gen2 C2S is, if I may say a bit lacking in excitment and if I had 8k burning a hole in my pocket I would consider it.

I will wait until Revo actually release a gen2 remap and then we will see! [:D]
 
Neil,

I must say if I were in your shoes with such a new engine in the Gen 2 Car. I'd stick with Porsche upgrades in the short term and go for the x51 upgrade if I had the £8k as well, that factory warranty gives a lot of piece of mind.

The engine bits the x51 changes give a fantastic base for latter upgrades, I found the revo remap on my x51 far more satisfying than on a stock Gen 1 C2S I tried (personal view here) and the throttle body itself is about 30% larger than the standard car, meaning you can get more out of an induction kit later on, if you fancy it.............[8|]
 
Okellyt, would you say the Milltek exhaust is the next step for me before the X51? is there any point even with the X51?
 
Good Question and tricky to answer.

Milltek on its own gets little noticable performance but a lovely loud engine noise, the real perfroamnce benefits are in conjunction with an engine remap.

If I was to revisit upgrading my car again. I would start with the induction system - a K&N or EVOMS induction system really helps the car's engine breath and really adds mid range grunt, making the car feel much faster and all for around £350 - £700 depending on K&N or EMS and if you change the filter. I had the K&N and it gave a real performance boost. Also the "engine noise" is actually a mixture of induction and exhaust, so the induction kit will give the car a bit more of a sporty sound.

After I got used to that I would go down the Milltek/ Revo stage 2 route as this is not cheap (£3-£3.5k all in). However at that point your brakes won't be up to it, so you'll need to upgrade the pads at least. You'd seriously need to cosnider the GT3 calipers/Disks and ducts as the car will be of similar on road performance (bit slower but heavier). A full GT3 brake conversion will be approx £3k to £4.

Cargraphic exhaust and DMS/ or similar remap is also an option. These tend to work better with EVOMS induction (DMS on its own works well with both induction systems). So you kind of need to have made a decision about how far you are going on the tuning route and therfore which if any exahaust you'd go for when you choose the induction kit.

However - if the car is fairly new and under warranty, with low mileage (sub 18k) and I had the cash I'd consider the x51 still. The changes they make to the engine (bigger manifolds, throttle body etc) really do help down stream when you tune the car. If anything its even more restricted by its induction system and exhaust than the standard car.

Yes you'd have the risk of wanting to upgrade more in a year or two and therfore having a fairly new sports exhaust you are replacing but as an interim a remapped x51 is good fun. And frankly at that stage you'd want to upgrade the brakes before any more performance is introduced. So in that case I'd do the Milltek/ Cragraphic exhaust and stage 2 remap last.

If you are on a Gen 2 C2S. I'd stick to the warranty get the x51 and wait until the new engine remaps have been out for a while.

 
Thanks Okellyt, would I have to have the car retuned by Revo if I added the induction kit? is it a simple DIY Job to fit the kit, as the car is under waranty and would like to be able to remove if neccesary. I had a quick look on the K&N website and couldn't find much other than an air filter. I also remember reading somewhere that the wrong filter could hamper and damage the air mass meter, is this just a fable?

Thanks and apologies for the neb type questions.

 
Induction kit would be filter plus gubbins. Look them up on somthing like the Porscheshop web site for general info.


http://www.porscheshop.co.uk/acatalog/porsche_997_engine_induction.html

Don't need a remap for the induction kit, one recommended and fitted by a specialist like Parr, Paragon, Porscheshop etc will work and should not damage the MAF. The K&N, FVD and EVOMS systems are designed to work with Porsches so are designed to work with the Porsche MAF. I wouldn't buy a kit for a different car and fit it to a Porsche mind.

Takes about 1 hour too fit, half that to remove. Soe asilly changed over to the "normal induction" should it be required for any reason.........
 

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