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Front discs

northo

New member
I have been looking for a set of drilled front discs, but it is difficult to tell from most websites whether the discs are drilled or not. Any suggestions - I don't want to spend a fortune, but the car is mainly used for trans Scotland blats and track work.

Thanks in advance,
Ed
 
I wouldn't bother with drilled for the track - will crack faster than plain ones.

try Bert @ Berlyn - he can do the Sebro discs plain or drilled
 
They crack quicker? Never heard that before - is that based on experience, hearsay or fact?!

They do look cooler though, which is always an issue!
 
I've always had solid disks for trackwork and never had them crack. Tony F had drilled disks and at the Donington trackday this year he showed me tiny 2-3mm cracks radiating from each drilled hole. GT3 owners have more expensive disks with cast holes which are stronger but on the Titanic GT3 forum you see a lot of talk about wen to replace them. From memory when the cracks reach 5-6mm you sould replace the disk.

Don't ever let the cracks from each hole meet up [:eek:]
 
Another vote for solid discs here, I've seen far too many otherwise good drilled discs being binned after trackdays because of cracks. Slotted discs or similar might be a good alternative if you want something different looking, but I haven't tried them so can't comment.
 
And a vote here for drilled discs.

While I appreciate you can get small cracks on drilled discs I have yet to hear of any failing as a result. I had several cracks of up to 10mm long on the drilled discs on my racing Westfield. These didn't seem to present any issues. One competitor drilled his discs to such a degree they looked like sieves. They never exploded.

The pad scrubbing, gas venting and additional cooling available through drilling far out weights the increased level of disc replacement as far as I am concerned.

Discs are consumables; just like tyres, oil, petrol and pads.
 
"I am not that impressed with the standard brake performance of my 944 S2."

It should be really good with the standard 4-pot callipers. I would look at rectifying plate lift which causes the brakes to partially sieze.
 
I agree with John. The S2 has four-pot Brembo brakes and should be perfectly adequate for road use. If they aren't, there may be something wrong such as plate lift or just bleeding. The brakes on mine are very good although noisy.

Re. drilled discs - I had these crack extensively without failing per se but it made me nervous to see them like that. The 'solid' discs are internally vented anyway so how much extra cooling cross-drilling adds is a moot point. They do look good though, but I'm sticking with solid.
 
The pad scrubbing, gas venting and additional cooling available through drilling far out weights the increased level of disc replacement as far as I am concerned.

Agree entirely................

Lots of apparent (mistaken) brake fade is gas from the pad solvent/binding agent creating a layer between the pad and disc, slots/grooves or holes break it up and keep the pad `sharp`.

 
FWIW, when I got my S2 18 months (and 15k) ago it had just had a set of Pagid pads and Zimmermann cross drilled discs fitted all round. The brakes were really very good indeed - feelsome and with excellent stopping power. On occasion I drive reasonably hard on the road and I could not fault them. I did a gentle track day in the car at Donington and found very little fade. I have regularly had all the wheels off and cleaned out the holes from their build up of brake dust.

They have always been noisy though, and after the car being laid up for the summer with fuel and brake lines being replaced and major bodywork the rear discs particulary suffered from quite deep corrosion that simply would not wear off with use. I have subsequently changed the discs for Sebro solid discs and new Pagid pads and they perform just as well, with less noise. A reasonably cost effective replacement too, with discs at about ÂŁ50 each and the pads about the same per axle, all from ECP.

Justin.
 
Another problem is that the holes get clogged up with brake dust therefore in some cases you are not getting any (or as much as you think) benefit of gas venting and cooling. I've read several threads on other forums about peoples different techniques for clearing the dust from the holes and added to the cracking problem I personally can't be bothered so have just stuck with the plain discs and they work perfectly fine for my purposes. Don't look as good as drilled discs though. Most of the GT3 boys are reverting back to non-drilled discs and don't appear to be reporting any adverse effects regards performance.
 
Scotty If you want to upgrade your front brakes i have calipers with adaptors and discs from a 89 turbo.
 
ORIGINAL: Diver944

I've always had solid disks for trackwork and never had them crack. Tony F had drilled disks and at the Donington trackday this year he showed me tiny 2-3mm cracks radiating from each drilled hole. GT3 owners have more expensive disks with cast holes which are stronger but on the Titanic GT3 forum you see a lot of talk about wen to replace them. From memory when the cracks reach 5-6mm you sould replace the disk.

Don't ever let the cracks from each hole meet up [:eek:]

IIRC they are genuine discs (911 turbo with the big blacks) on my car so may well be cast, I cracked my solid (standard sized) discs as well though so it might just be me,
Tony
 
ORIGINAL: 944Turbo


IIRC they are genuine discs (911 turbo with the big blacks) on my car so may well be cast, I cracked my solid (standard sized) discs as well though so it might just be me,
Tony

I cracked some solid discs as well.
 
I've heard reference to disks with holes cast into them and I'm confused as to how cast discs would be more resistant to cracking. It is well known and understood that cast components give you a poorer surface finish and a less dense and less unform granular structure and therefore are not as crack resistant as forged materials or componenets made from forged billets. Also once a crack has initiated in a cast structure it propogates much quicker due to the poorer material properties of cast structures. Drilling by far produces a far better surface finish and is far more crack resistant and stop drilling is the primary method of stopping the propogtion of cracks in sheet metal. Are you sure holes are cast into these discs or is that a common misconception?
 
Cast discs are more resistant to cracking. If you drill then the drill causes shockwave damage, even if the speed, feed and pecking is optimised. It also can cause machine-hardening making the area around the drilling more brittle and hence more susceptible to cracking.
 
Ian, the potential problems associated with drilling you describe are pretty well understood and should be avoided by using the correct tools and machining parameters. On my appreticeship if I was ever caught in charge of any machine that was chattering or with signs of blueing on the cut surface i'd up for a severe dressing down in front of the lads'. It was a serious no, no! The reason is that when you were unleashed onto the shop floor and put in charge of a machine that was cutting metal on a component that was worth more than 10yrs worth of an apprentice's wage you had to do things right first time.

I suspect cast holes are a by-product of making the manufacturing process cheaper rather than solid engineering performance reasons. For example the disc will be heat trated to harden the surface, which means you cannot drill the holes before heat treating the brake disc surface due to the possible distortion and warping effect on the disc due to the drilled holes, and to drill the holes after heat treating the disc surface would massively increase the cost of your tooling due to the harder surface of the disc eating drills for breakfast. Therefore by casting in the holes and only carrying out a light finishing cut on them after heat treatment would massively save on the cost of drills. Just my theory anyway.

Seems to me that the discs with cast in holes are still not resistant to cracking. Porsche 'drilled' discs, that supposedly have cast holes, seem just as prone to cracking as any other 'drilled' disc from what I read. This is why alot of the GT3 chaps are reverting back to solid discs as the drilled ones are only lasting for a handful of track sessions in some cases. I guess they must really be driving them hard though.

Anyway back on topic - drilled discs are perfectly fine but for hard track work you should be aware of the possible cracking issues.

Scotty - with regards to EBC yellows. I've got them at the moment. They are far better than EBC reds I had before which I found to be simply dangerous when cold. So far i've found the EBC yellows to be much better, they have good cold bite and i've not noticed any drop off in performance when temps get high on track. However I am disappointed with their feel - i.e. you don't get a progressive increase in bite as you push harder on the brake pedal, so they feel a bit numb, but in terms of out and out braking performance they are perfectly adequate. They can squeal at low speeds, but not all the time and certainly not embarrassingly so. I would love to go with Performance Friction pads next time, which by all accounts are supposed to be unbelievable, but since the car is my daily runner I couldn't live with the copious amounts of corrosive brake dust they seem to produce. I might even go down the route of swapping the pads for trackdays like Paul, so I can use PF pads for trackdays and stock pads for street as i'm planning on a second set of trackday wheels so it's not a big job to fit different pads while i'm in there. I've not really had enough experience with other pads to particularly recommend them over any other brand, but I would not recommend the reds. If you go for EBC's then go with the yellows.
 
Scott - fair enough, I'm really speaking outside my remit. I work for a company that machines huge hydraulic manifolds from SG Iron but I'm only the IT manager ([:)]). Nevertheless, the bloke in charge of assembly assures me that even with correct feeds, through-coolant drills, and a slow pecking cycle, drilling always causes stress which is unavoidable. We're going off-topic a bit, but interesting stuff. I had severe cracking on some EBC drilled discs on an E30 325i I had but that's hardly an exhaustive experiment, I admit.
 
Oh I also have yellows, when they were new they squealed all the time but after a track day they went silent. I find they wear less than the reds which dissapeared on a trackday and also offer better performance. Greens offered similar performance to standard with less dust (or similar levels of lighter coloured dust), I found they did wear the disc faster than standard pads though.
Tony
 
ORIGINAL: sawood12

.....EBC reds I had before which I found to be simply dangerous when cold.......

I have reds and go along with that 100%. You can be driving down the road, not having used your brakes for a while, go for the brakes and think someone has stolen the pads and replaced them with wood - except wood might afford better retardation.

I'll be ditching mine for PF next year.
 

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