fuel lines

[James_G]

Interesting, I have been looking at these [link=http://www.earls.co.uk/]http://www.earls.co.uk/[/link] but good to have another choice. The difficult part of this job, beyond negotiating all the various motor trade issues, seems to be how to effectively join a piece of flexible pipe to the existing solid fuel line. Earlier in this post somebody has said they've gone down the compression route, but reading elsewhere there's people saying you can't get a decent seal as compression joints are designed to work on softer materials (copper presumably rather than our steel lines). I agree that the nicest solution beyond wholesale original part replacement could be flexible pipes from the back all the way to the pipe joints at the front, which I believe are just before the original pipework heads into the engine bay, and I think this is what the RPM solution does. Meanwhile I spoke to my local independent about what they do and while they said doing it properly was the preferred option, they've seen plenty of cars running rubber fuel pipe and clips with no problems. Meanwhile here's the Rennbay option, and which seems to run compression fittings, but looks only long enough to replace the pipework over the rear trailing arm. [link=http://www.rennbay.com/fuel-hose-replacement-deluxe-kit-porsche-944-early-late-p-147.html?osCsid=1494c9327101c3b7417a8b4386cdbe87]http://www.rennbay.com/fuel-hose-replacement-deluxe-kit-porsche-944-early-late-p-147.html?osCsid=1494c9327101c3b7417a8b4386cdbe87[/link] Choice, choices....

 

[TURBOSRACER]

when i done my fuel pipe i few years ago i got 4 meters of high pressure fuel hose from demon tweeks i think it was about £25-30 a metre plus fittings, the pipe was flexible enough to go over the torsion bar, the pipe cuts easy and the fitting just press on.(i think the pipe is goodridge 200 series check on demon tweek web site)the only problem was the goodridge fittings dont fit onto the fuel pressure reg i had to have a adaptor made at a local machine shop near demon tweeks they made it straight away for me for £15 job done. hope this helps.

 

[Frenchy]

Turbosracer, Hope you are well Jim from Oulton RS Trackday []

 

[TURBOSRACER]

very well thanks, hope your keeping well.

 

[James_G]

Done some exploratory work today and thought I'd post some pictures. My fuel lines have been cut back from 2/3rds along the car as seen here. Please note, proper fuel pipe and double clipped:

For those who need to know for the future, the flow pipe is 10mm diameter and the return pipe is 8mm diameter. Here's the proof:

Here's what it looks like at the back:

Not ideal eh? But take a look at this shot. It looks like the pipe with the red writing that goes into the fuel filter is original, so how would the original metal pipes be fitted to this? I can only assume that it would have been with some form of petrol clip. Has anybody been under theirs recently and can advise.

Anyway, the upshot of all this is that there's no evidence of a fuel leak anymore, so for now I'm just going to monitor it and see if it returns.

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: James_G Done some exploratory work today and thought I'd post some pictures. My fuel lines have been cut back from 2/3rds along the car as seen here. Please note, proper fuel pipe and double clipped:

For those who need to know for the future, the flow pipe is 10mm diameter and the return pipe is 8mm diameter. Here's the proof:

Here's what it looks like at the back:

Not ideal eh? But take a look at this shot. It looks like the pipe with the red writing that goes into the fuel filter is original, so how would the original metal pipes be fitted to this? I can only assume that it would have been with some form of petrol clip. Has anybody been under theirs recently and can advise.

Anyway, the upshot of all this is that there's no evidence of a fuel leak anymore, so for now I'm just going to monitor it and see if it returns.

Had your digi vernier calibrated recently ?, (just kidding). There's fuel resistant hose and there's high pressure fuel resistant hose, should be marked on it what it is, I worked for a company for 15 years that made a huge amount of original equipment hose assemblies and I would be looking for a flare or similar on the ends of the hard pipe and either a crimped fastener or a proper clip on such an critical item.

 

[James_G]

I couldn't agree with you more. But without wishing to sound defeatist you try and find a tool to flare steel pipe in situ. Anyway before I investigate that aspect, I am still trying to establish how it was all connected originally. I am sure Porsche used some clips into rubber hose in there somewhere as I can't see them using solid fuel lines all the way to fuel tank/filter.

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: James_G I couldn't agree with you more. But without wishing to sound defeatist you try and find a tool to flare steel pipe in situ.

I've never looked to be honest, and as we were doing thousands they were machine formed, I'd probably try and replicate the tooling and use it in a cordless drill.

 

[barks944]

What are the issues with using jubilee clips like that? Has anyone here had a bad experience fitting a fuel hose this way?

 

[u63af]

A jubille would probably be ok but you are better to use fuel clips. the jublee does not exert equal pressure around the hose and this can lead to leaks. The fuel clip exerts the same force around the hose and ensures a tight seal. This is what the fuel clip looks like. It is similar to a jubilee but does not deform when tightened. http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.aapsa.com.au/awshop/images/SL-2-LRG.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.aapsa.com.au/awshop/index.php%3Fmain_page%3Dindex%26cPath%3D3_31&usg=__OEqdYaSSvDfx-JB0oEFFggnEMyM=&h=300&w=300&sz=11&hl=en&start=9&um=1&tbnid=whSb9qcdAf3-AM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfuel%2Bclip%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GBfficial%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1 Regards Sandy

 

[barks944]

Thanks for the info Sandy.

 

[George Elliott]

Sandy , good to see an image of the proper clamp for the job. I used these with a Dia 8mm & Dia10mm bore fuel hose 4 years ago with no problems. (I fitted a double clip at each connection, - which added to the cost as they are nearly 35p each[], but hey its important not to have a leak). The hose was from a compamy called CODAN, and is approved for the job to BS AU 108/2-L. The Clips are by ACE and I used a 15mm-17mm size. I fitted it myself, and there was no way it either needed to be flared or could be flared to a decent standard. The hose is a tight fit on the metal pipe before it is clamped, as it needs to be. The fuel is operating at 3Bar which is not massive in pressure terms. This is a job that can cost £20 or the earth, I feel really sorry for people who get conned into metal replacements on the grounds of safety. I would even suggest the rubber hose would be safer than a metal hose in certain accident situations as flexi is less likely to fracture. George 944t

 

[tref]

Sure enough, the time has come when I do have to play the fuel line game... just a quick question for those that have done this job: what methods of keeping the fuel in place have worked for you? I have half a tank of fuel, (which stays put unless the engine is run, suggesting to me the problem is on the return pipe) which I'd rather not drain unless I have to! Thanks, Tref.

 

[Joss Walker]

I was tempted by the RPM flexible hoses all the way through, I think their £350 pounds ish. Anybody used them? I had these installed on my S2 as it started leaking fuel just a few weeks after I bought it. Really impressed with the setup, they use braided hoses and since they are flexible you don't have to drop anything on the rear. However their cost estimate is very conservative and doesn't include all the connectors and clips etc, I was quite surprised with the final cost and am now quite embarrassed since people in this thread are talking about their cost being £100! I guess you live and learn, I should have joined this club when I bought the car, not a year later! If you want to know what I paid them PM me, I really can't type it on a public forum!

 

[Joss Walker]

ORIGINAL: Joss Walker I was tempted by the RPM flexible hoses all the way through, I think their £350 pounds ish. Anybody used them? I had these installed on my S2 as it started leaking fuel just a few weeks after I bought it. Really impressed with the setup, they use braided hoses and since they are flexible you don't have to drop anything on the rear. However their cost estimate is very conservative and doesn't include all the connectors and clips etc, I was quite surprised with the final cost

I have dug out my old invoice (I keep them all but don't like to look at them often!-I'm sure I can't be alone in this respect) and I need to set the record straight. When RPM replaced my lines the total cost of parts was GBP333, including a couple of Porsche hoses that cost GBP30 and a new fuel filter (another GBP30). I'm not sure of the labour charge/time as I had a load of other stuff done at the same time. Therefore their estimate of GBP350 would seem to be bang on for the parts. My unpleasant memory came from the accumulated cost of this and the other work they did (replacing PAS pump, rebuilding pump mount, new tensioner rod, coolant flush) which had slipped my mind. I don't want to cast RPM in the wrong light, they've always been excellent with me and very open about what I should do now, can do in a couple of years and what maybe desirable but un-necessary. There, that's made me feel less guilty!

 

[FistsOfHam]

I used the RPM flexible hose kit. Very impressed with it. I had the rear axle dropped anyway due to needing to treat a bit of surface rust before it got any worse around the mountings but here are the pics of mine installed.

It took a while to get the connections right on mine as they'd never done a kit for an early 944 before and mine was based on a kit for a 924S then we changed the connections to get everything right. Luckily they were very accommodating and I was in no rush due to the car being an on going project. I was supplied with the hose and all the connectors and all I had to do was cut the hose to length then fit the connectors and strap to the car using the clips provided. I'm impressed by the finish and it's much better than the rotten old metal lines that snapped as I removed them from the car they were that bad.

 

[tref]

What have people done to get the pipe clip off that is just above the torsion bar housing? It seems nigh on impossible to get at without dropping the rear suspension? have the various flexi-pipe options left it in place an by-passed it?

 

[Indi9xx]

Please do not be tempted to use rubber hose and hose clips, I have seen way too many issues with people trying this route, we normally see them on new customers cars recently bought on ebay and either leaking or about to leak! Indeed the fuel pressure reg's on some 944's have a push fit hose and jubilee clip, but that it a very low pressure fuel return line, not quite the same as a 2.5 to 3.0 bar (and more if the fuel pressure goes out of spec!) We first made a kit to replace the rear sections of 944 fuel lines years ago using a system of a 100 Bar rated flexible section, crimped high pressure ends and of course high pressure fittings to hook up to the original pipes beyond the corrosion zone, without ever seeing a failure, however... as the years have rolled by, we have seen the pipes corrode further and the front sections of original pipe failing, so developed a complete solution using the same flexible composite tube used by modern car manufacturers which works well and is even easier to fit. So my advice? Don't use rubber hose and a couple of jubilee clips, use a system which is rated many times higher than the highest probable fuel pressure that your car might develop ( >5 Bar) and has a coupling up to the job.. Or you could use the genuine Porsche pipes... Expensive to buy, very time consuming to install.. If you're going to remove the beam anyway, do it.. if not, don't put yourself through it.

 

[sawood12]

The photo's above appear to show that the braided flexi hose is clamped right up against the underside of the body of the car and there are a couple of sections where it is bent over an edge - like in the shot where the hose appears to be bent over the inlet manifold. Though this looks like a quality kit of parts i'm not too impressed with the installation. Fuel hoses whether flexi or hard lines, should be installed so they stand-off from whatever it is they are attached to. The OEM fuel lines are mounted in this way and flexi lines should also be - especially flexi lines as they are so susceptible to external chafing - they shouldn't be in contact with the underside of the car at all along their entire length. I'd be very concerned with accelerated wear at these specific pinch points. If the photo's are showing this then i'd be keeping a very close eye on them to check for any chaffing and accelerated wear.

 

[chrisg]

Notwithstanding mounting points etc, I'm fascinated to see that the fuel line location on a Lux is on the passenger side not the drivers side as with S2, Turbo etc ! I had to check the photos a couple of times to get my bearings...