GT3 confession

[ian harvey]

I am over it now but I recently found myself being drawn strongly to a particularly nice 997.1 GT3 Clubsport (911 Virgin). Don't ask me why it grabbed my sustained attention beacause I couldn't answer but it made sense in some respects; lower mileasge (26k v's 61k), Porsche warranty to Aug '14 and probably cheaper running costs in the short-term whereas mine is due a major service in Spring. The car also seems to have lead a very sheltered life with a great ECU history regarding revs etc. Spec is comprehensive (too much so, actually, why do you need sat-nav and electric mirrors for instance) and condition appears near perfect? My wife liked the idea and said she woild probably have a drive or two! Once was more than enough in mine.

Some of the reasons for deciding not to go and view the car (that could have been dangerous) include: fear of (unwarranted) slagging-off by the dealer of my RS as I would have had to sell/exchange it, fear of the complexity of things like the adjustable suspension, a dislike of all the modern frippery and electronic gismo's and a general feeling of things being too sanitised and easy. I get enough of that with my everyday car. The main reason is the knowledge that if I ever let my trusty RS go, I would never get another one without spending a small fortune for the priviledge. The inevitable reasoning about depreciation/appreciation was not a big influence but would have been if I had gone ahead.

In addition, the perceived improvements in the 997.2 are hard to ignore and should one really be aiming at a GT3 RS? I like to use my car on the road (standard set-up and compliant P-zero's - you should try it) and I take no convincing that the GT3 would be much better but how fast would you be travelling?!

Anyway, the reason for my post was to prompt a bit of debate especially from those who have deserted our flock and seek the thoughts from those who have the benefit of hindsight. Are you glad you swapped, do you miss the 964? Which one is the most rewarding track device, yes the newer car is quicker but is the fun reduced?

Your thoughts, please.

Ian

 

[oldtimer]

Hi Ian , if you are going to do trackdays on a regular basis then the GT3 makes good sense. You will have the company of other GT3 owners as it tends to be the weapon of choice , and a 10% insurance excess wont be such a stiffer if you go for a 35-45 £k value car.....as compared to tracking a 60-70 £k ( more for a never tracked raced rallied original paint polisher) 964RS.

If your trackdays are infrequent and use is predominantly road , GT3 is hard to beat IMO. I almost got one but in the end my love of the classic 911 shape , the camaraderie of aircooled , and the sensible price of a track sorted 964C2 prevailed.

I only got the 964RS to learn to drive circuits and after 10 years of ownership it had done that for me ( as far as it could ! ) and the game had changed to following market selling prices. If you can get shedloads of money for the 964RS then maybe the GT3RS is the one to go for , as new or as old as suits .....easier to drive , faster , air-con , more wife -friendly...

 

[PhilRS]

I have been quite often down a similar lane, but to possibly add a little sister to the 993 Cup.

But whenever I try a road GT3 996/7, I feel as if I am wearing a thick pair of shearling-lined gloves and long for the tactile feel of an older 911.

Also, I really do not like the shape of the 996 and successors.

I like their engine note though.

A 997 Cup S could be a nice option (if it did not have this expensive to maintain sequential box).

Meanwhile, rose-tinted glasses and beard for me. [][][]

 

[pauldishman]

From what I know about Henry Firman at 911 virgin, I don't think you'd need fear an attack on your car as he used to own one, and is a genuine Porsche enthusiast.

 

[clubsport]

If it is to be used on track, the running costs appear to be significantly higher than air cooled cars.

Drive one, they are fun when you are on it and just a nice 997 when you are not.....the problem being that you can't really do much of the "on it" if you want to keep your licence or are on track.

You can have more involvement and ultimately fun at slower speeds in an air cooled car.

 

[vic cohen]

well Ian ive never owned a 964 rs ,but i reckon the 993 Cup was abt as raw as u can get for comparison purposes ........................i bought a 997 rs series 1 earlier this year ..............to me the most surprising thing was how good it was on the road, especially on decent long journies ...............in fact the only down side was the front spoiler around town going to see my kids..........half way remedy, i fitted a rubber cup car spoiler , more flexible and only £85 to replace when it came off !

At Spa earlier this year combination of wet and dry, dont think i ve ever gone faster , no jokes please ! but well under 3 mins [ good for me i am 65 now! ] 993 GT2 days i only managed 2 .50 s in cs on a good day ...........GT3 ,Phil s right its very very good but if i say too easy, always found the early cars a challenge and thats really what 911 going fast is all abt .....................we d probably all go quicker in a Radical !
Either way the old lady found seats uncomfortable so we were using oldies 2.4 S or Flattie Turbo when we went out .............finally i retired early this year and started looking at the depreciation...........Mr Virgin sold it for me ....to someone at ICAp ironically ...........................Mke no mistake i am glad i had it ,proved that kettles are nt all bad !Not by a long chalk

 

[Steve Brookes]

ORIGINAL: PhilRS

A 997 Cup S could be a nice option (if it did not have this expensive to maintain sequential box).

They look quite useable on the road:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzmag2hdiU8

[]

 

[ian harvey]

Hmm, all good stuff, nothing to seriously conflict with my thoughts so far. Its clearly all about committment and reward rather than outright speed as far as the driving goes. When the kids move on and a few more European tours beckon, a GT3 makes all kind of sense, especially with a few track days thrown in for good measure.

I would still be interested to hear from someone who has moved from '64RS to GT3/RS with their comparrisons. I know that most would chose the GT3 in a split second but I don't think I'm there yet.

Ian

 

[andrew symms]

ORIGINAL: vic cohen

well Ian ive never owned a 964 rs ,but i reckon the 993 Cup was abt as raw as u can get for comparison purposes ........................i bought a 997 rs series 1 earlier this year ..............to me the most surprising thing was how good it was on the road, especially on decent long journies ...............in fact the only down side was the front spoiler around town going to see my kids..........half way remedy, i fitted a rubber cup car spoiler , more flexible and only £85 to replace when it came off !

At Spa earlier this year combination of wet and dry, dont think i ve ever gone faster , no jokes please ! but well under 3 mins [ good for me i am 65 now! ] 993 GT2 days i only managed 2 .50 s in cs on a good day ...........GT3 ,Phil s right its very very good but if i say too easy, always found the early cars a challenge and thats really what 911 going fast is all abt .....................we d probably all go quicker in a Radical !
Either way the old lady found seats uncomfortable so we were using oldies 2.4 S or Flattie Turbo when we went out .............finally i retired early this year and started looking at the depreciation...........Mr Virgin sold it for me ....to someone at ICAp ironically ...........................Mke no mistake i am glad i had it ,proved that kettles are nt all bad !Not by a long chalk

Vic -where do you get the rubber cup car splitter from as mine needs replacing and it sounds like the answer?

I have gone from Mk1 GT3 to 997 RS, big step up in comfort but can still do the bsuiness when required.

 

[rs phil]

i have bought a black m3 csl...for road hands down better than rs,and is best engine noise ever

i havent done much track use in rs in past few years,dont plan on doing in csl so suits perfect for now

not a porsche but what a car for the money

do think about keeping rs from time to time because of reasons you have stated about value and maybe wanting to get back into one someday....but you dont know until its gone!! or not[]

 

[vic cohen]

Any main agent .theres one with 2 slits to let air through and one without....sorry bills went ith the car dont have part numbers

 

[Yoda]

I had a lovely 964 RS for about 4 years, bought as it was the cheapest track focused 911 at the time (£25k)! I had a great time with it - 10 trips to the continent, over 40 track days and met some great people through the club. Never let me down and was very cheap to run needing only servicing and consumables plus I sold it for a useful profit which was nice. Amazing car on track but pretty rubbish on road (with a track set up at least). It was fine on long trips to Spa etc but no good for B roads in the UK. Do I miss it - every time I see one! I loved the way the arches could barely contain the wheels and it was so unassuming. One of the best looking 911s of all time in my view.

I bought a 996.2 GT3 Comfort at the start of this year from an OPC. It is immaculate and had £5k spent on it preparing it for sale and came with a 2 yr warranty. I haven't spent a penny on it and expect depreciation will be gentle but it will cost more to run than the 964 RS in the long term. OPC service has been exceptional and the warranty really gives piece of mind. One of the coolant hoses detatched from the oil filter console (known GT3 issue) resulting in plumes of steam from the engine bay on the M3 ... recovered and fixed without fuss but glad it was under warranty! Much better road car and a really good drive on track too. The engine is pure magic (better than the 964 RS IMO) and is at its best when wound up. It is quicker than the 964 RS which is an issue as you can be travelling very fast which isn't a good thing on road. I did a 2k mile road trip to the Alps / CLM over the summer and it was perfect - fast and frugal getting there and amazing in the mountains. I have also had rear seat belts fitted which has been a revalation. The kids head straight for it whenever we go out anywhere, they love it and their smiles are priceless! It's also good value at the moment.

Do I miss it - Yes. It was stunning and I have great memories of it. At current prices, I doubt I would buy another 964 RS as there are other things I would rather have for the money. My ideal garage would have the GT3 and an early, air coooled 911 - both of which could be had forthe price of a 964 RS.
Am I glad I swapped it - Yes. The GT3 is much better on road, I can take the kids and it is no slouch on track.
Best track car - 964 RS.
Is it less fun - No, just different. The 964 RS felt more special to own and on track. The GT3 is unbeatable for road trips and a much better all rounder.

Happy days []

 

[Hacki]

I think, Yoda said it all, couldn´t have been done better.

Personally, whenever I thought about selling and going for something else over the years, I decided to keep it. Not only because of the driving experience, as Yoda said, it´s a special feeling to own it, too.
With a compromise set-up it´s not too bad on the road and ok on track - but far away from what a GT 3 can do.

So, it´s up to the personal preferences. My choice was to keep the Cup car (still do some track days, not very much) and buy a 993 for longer trips. These two cars do it for me.

To me it´s not " either or", it´s "and", also as Yoda said. I know there are some of the usual suspects on this forum thinking the same way. If it has to be just one, it´ll be a decision hard to make. If track day focussed and not short of money for the running cost - GT 3 will be the car, way faster than a 964 RS. If it should be aircooled, raw, great looking and with that unbeatable feeling, that only the 964 RS has, it´s easy to choose! And think about the feeling getting out of a 964 RS or Cup after some hot laps or a ride on country roads - when it´s sitting there, sizzling!

Regards,

Hacki

 

[clubsport]

Maybe a silly thing to say, but sometimes, you just have to scratch that itch. The best thing(if possible) is to hang on to the car you are unsure of selling as well!

Depends on the car and financial circumstances, interest rates are low, but I do know quite a few people (myself included) who have bought the "new" toy and sold it after a while keeping the original, as they know they wouldn't buy or find another.

 

[ian harvey]

Hacki, Clubsport and especially Yoda

Thanks very much for actually answering the question, very interesting and not too far away from what I expected. It would definately have to be one or the other for me and, for now atleast, I will stick with the RS. I've had it for a long time now (14 yrs) and I cannot convince myself to part with it. Its partly the known quantity thing, partly running costs (I can't see them being that much more to run than the RS but I could be wrong) and the risk of getting it wrong and regretting selling it.

I'm pretty certain that I would love a GT3, who wouldn't? Are insurance costs similar btw?

I also used to have harnesses in the back of mine when the kids were younger. My youngest, William, used to cry if I put my foot down too hard, mainly due to noise. I removed the harnesses when they grew larger as I realised that removing them from the rear in the case of an accident would be difficult!

I'm sure I'll look again some time, maybe when I can stretch to a 997.2 GT3 or RS. By then the '64 RS will contrast even more with modern cars and may seem all the more attractive for that?

Who's actually buying our cars these days, are they still be tracked back in the Homeland or are they going to collectors?

 

[Schleicher]

I had a 964RS for 11 years and went to 997GT3 Gen 2. I used to say that the worst thing that you could do to a 64RS was sell it!.

In answer to your questions. Yes, I wanted the 997GT3 because in my view it could do more of what I intended to use it for - mix of regular drives, track and long trips abroad where 'sissy' options like AC come in pretty handy. Yes, sadly missed but so was my 3.2 Clubsport before the 64RS (can't keep them all in my world). They're different cars and both are rewarding to drive, you have to try and get it right in both in order to seek those rewards- not claiming I could/do but I think you get what I mean - neither will drive itself road or track! No, fun isn't reduced in the GT3, as previous question, trying to get it right is different that's all.

Thinking back on things, I never thought I'd sell my 3.2 clubbie....then I drove my cousin's 64RS and knew almost instantly that I wanted one, correction - NEEDED one. I hung onto the clubbie for a while, just to be sure but eventually sold it.

I know what you mean about the relative simplicity of the earlier car and the thought also crossed my mind about how well the electro gizmos will age.

Big disappointment with Gen2 GT3 is turning out to be those CL wheels!

Money no object and time to spare for driving each I'd have GT3, 64RS, plus the 3.2 clubbie.

Go drive a GT3 for an hour or two Ian, you'll know either way pretty quickly I think.


Robert

 

[rs phil]

if you dont need money for something else keep it,mine is for sale at the moment and i am still wondering have i done the right thing,but i had driven myself mad wondering...so i will wait for a little while longer if it sells well and good ,someone will get a gem of a car

if it doesnt iam putting it away and will enjoy another day!!

996 mk1 gt3 are great car and great value

 

[ian harvey]

Thanks Robert

Your car is lovely and felt like all the fun anyone would need when you took me round Cadwell. Your Gen2 type GT3 is worth much more than the Gen 1 car that caught my eye. It seems that a Gen 2 is worth saving up for.

How do insurance costs compare if you don't mind me asking? Shame you're not pleased with the centre-locks, what's the trouble?

Ian

 

[Schleicher]

Insurance is about 800 with Manning and includes track day cover and Mrs S named driver. CL system is now on second recall and the system isn't user friendly, I have a 4 foot torque wrench for use in the garage, plus 4 foot collapsible breaker bar, torpedo shaped tool to help slide wheels off without risk of chipping a ceramic disc, torque multiplier and torque wrench that travel in the car just in case - none of which was supplied with the car, cost a chunk of change and weighs a fair bit.

 

[Yoda]

I think insurance costs for 964 RS and 996 GT3 are pretty similar - I pay £460 fully comp incluluding track days for the GT3. 5k limit per year,has to be garaged, live in London and clean licence. I used to pay about the same for the 964 RS several years ago.