As you say, similar money to insure either, from memory I'm £490 with Classisline, various immobilisers, garaged, clean licence etc. Have to pay for trackdays outside of PCGB. Only 3000 miles though which can be a bit tight after Le Mans trip
GT3 confession
- Thread starter ian harvey
- Start date
Steve Brookes
Moderator
Ian, you are not the only to have such dastardly thoughts! I too have thought about a potential change on numerous occasions this year. I've all too frequently scanned the GT3 classifieds to see what was about. Like yourself there has been at itch there that didn't go away. The only difference being that I wouldn't be swapping a highly valued 964RS in my case. If I did make the switch I'd be looking at the 996 GT3 mk1 clubsport. Partly because of price and partly because of the way it feels. I've been lucky enough to have passenger rides in all the road going GT3 variants except the latest 997 Gen 2 RS. But it was the earliest one that made me smile the most. It felt rawer than the others and much closer to a 964. A sort of faster and more comfortable version of a 964RS.
At the moment I've banished the idea of making the change on the basis that a GT3 puts you in a different trackday category. With a GT3 you're almost expected to be amongst the quickest on a trackday. In a 964RS or modified C2, we can just get on with enjoying ourselves out on track with no pressure. Just like we've done on those Donington evenings.[
]
However, if you do decide jump ship, I think you should take a close look at those early GT3s as that would lead to you still having a great car and good chunk of cash in the bank. You might have to dive in soon because my guess is that the boat of reasonably priced early GT3s is set to sale soon. A boat I'm likely to miss myself (as usual)!
At the moment I've banished the idea of making the change on the basis that a GT3 puts you in a different trackday category. With a GT3 you're almost expected to be amongst the quickest on a trackday. In a 964RS or modified C2, we can just get on with enjoying ourselves out on track with no pressure. Just like we've done on those Donington evenings.[
]However, if you do decide jump ship, I think you should take a close look at those early GT3s as that would lead to you still having a great car and good chunk of cash in the bank. You might have to dive in soon because my guess is that the boat of reasonably priced early GT3s is set to sale soon. A boat I'm likely to miss myself (as usual)!
Steve, I tend to agree with all that you say except your inference that you are somehow not fast enough. I find that the more I think about the GT3 conondrum, the more confused I become. For instance, take your early 996 GT3 Clubsport idea, if its so similar to the 964RS, why change? This is particularly so if (?) they are not as dependable as our cars.
Some would argue that the 996 did not represent Porsche's finest hour as far as build qualit is concerned, at which point I reconsider the 997.1 Clubsport that first caught my eye (surely available with a bit of change in an exchange for mine?) but then is the value of that car under pressure from all subsequent, apparently better variants? And on it goes...
Anyone would think I'm not happy with my own car. Not so, back to square one- keep mine and stop bothering this forum!
Ian
Some would argue that the 996 did not represent Porsche's finest hour as far as build qualit is concerned, at which point I reconsider the 997.1 Clubsport that first caught my eye (surely available with a bit of change in an exchange for mine?) but then is the value of that car under pressure from all subsequent, apparently better variants? And on it goes...
Anyone would think I'm not happy with my own car. Not so, back to square one- keep mine and stop bothering this forum!
Ian
964RS_DAB
New member
Ian
a 96.1 GT3 Clubbie is not similar to a 64RS, they are very different propositions. I think the point Steve is making is that they both share a raw engaging driving experience which provides the driver with lots of feedback and takes considerable skill on the driver's part to make quick progress. The 997.1 by comparison is assisted by driver aids and as such does a lot of the work for you and gives you less feedback and is generally less engaging. 97.1s are hugely competent cars, and VERY quick, possibly too quick for use on UK roads.
Given that your starting point is a 64 Cup, the 97.1 would be a huge leap and may be too sophisticated for your tastes and not sufficiently challenging?. Whereas the 96.1 clubbie would give you more comfort / refinement but with similar feedback to your 64CUP - best of both worlds?
The downsides of GT3s vs 64RSs is they still depreciate, more so for the 97.1, and the running costs are much higher, particularly if you track them. Insurance costs are similar in my experience.
cheers
David
a 96.1 GT3 Clubbie is not similar to a 64RS, they are very different propositions. I think the point Steve is making is that they both share a raw engaging driving experience which provides the driver with lots of feedback and takes considerable skill on the driver's part to make quick progress. The 997.1 by comparison is assisted by driver aids and as such does a lot of the work for you and gives you less feedback and is generally less engaging. 97.1s are hugely competent cars, and VERY quick, possibly too quick for use on UK roads.
Given that your starting point is a 64 Cup, the 97.1 would be a huge leap and may be too sophisticated for your tastes and not sufficiently challenging?. Whereas the 96.1 clubbie would give you more comfort / refinement but with similar feedback to your 64CUP - best of both worlds?
The downsides of GT3s vs 64RSs is they still depreciate, more so for the 97.1, and the running costs are much higher, particularly if you track them. Insurance costs are similar in my experience.
cheers
David
Steve Brookes
Moderator
Good decision! [
] And you must continue to keep it at least until you've taken it to Spa. []
"Given that your starting point is a 64 Cup, the 97.1 would be a huge leap and may be too sophisticated for your tastes and not sufficiently challenging?. Whereas the 96.1 clubbie would give you more comfort / refinement but with similar feedback to your 64CUP - best of both worlds?"
64 Cup? Ian wishes. ....... []
64 Cup? Ian wishes. ....... [
]Steve
Do you know, thats one of the thoughts thats been on my mind the most, I really want to go (trying to think of ways to afford it, running out of time) and in my mind it just would not feel the same in anything but the RS.
Melv
I'd been expecting you! The RSL was /is probably the right choice for me considering plenty of road use and 'only' an average of 3 trackdays per year.
Merry xmas one and all
Do you know, thats one of the thoughts thats been on my mind the most, I really want to go (trying to think of ways to afford it, running out of time) and in my mind it just would not feel the same in anything but the RS.
Melv
I'd been expecting you! The RSL was /is probably the right choice for me considering plenty of road use and 'only' an average of 3 trackdays per year.
Merry xmas one and all
Ian
have a 993RS and a 997.1 GT3, so some experience of both camps (though not a 964). The main differences, as I see them are:
1) Handling - the GT3 is both better damped and better controlled (the 993 has the KW suspension from Manthey, so somewhat harder than normal - leaps around on the road, but brilliant on the track)
2) Weight - the GT3 is about 100kg heavier than the 993, which manifests itself largely under braking/cornering. For instance, I feel that I can carry (relatively) more speed into corners in the 993 - at Oulton, I was getting overtaken by GT3s on the straights, but then having to back off going into the corners behind them.
3) Consumables - the combination of the higher weights and greater speed in the GT3 means its much harder on brakes and tyres than the 993. I reckon Cups last 1500/1800 miles (especially the rears) or 2 track days at best. Have got through 2 sets of front discs, one set of rears and 3 sets of pads in four years of comparatively light use.
4) Engine - Mezger (Not Metzger as in this month's PP!) engine is quite peaky and needs at least 4k rpm, whilst the 993 will easliy pull from 1800rpm to the red line
Hope this helps. Both are truely great cars. I don't think we'll see anything like the GT3 in the future, as electronics are taking over.
Ellis
have a 993RS and a 997.1 GT3, so some experience of both camps (though not a 964). The main differences, as I see them are:
1) Handling - the GT3 is both better damped and better controlled (the 993 has the KW suspension from Manthey, so somewhat harder than normal - leaps around on the road, but brilliant on the track)
2) Weight - the GT3 is about 100kg heavier than the 993, which manifests itself largely under braking/cornering. For instance, I feel that I can carry (relatively) more speed into corners in the 993 - at Oulton, I was getting overtaken by GT3s on the straights, but then having to back off going into the corners behind them.
3) Consumables - the combination of the higher weights and greater speed in the GT3 means its much harder on brakes and tyres than the 993. I reckon Cups last 1500/1800 miles (especially the rears) or 2 track days at best. Have got through 2 sets of front discs, one set of rears and 3 sets of pads in four years of comparatively light use.
4) Engine - Mezger (Not Metzger as in this month's PP!) engine is quite peaky and needs at least 4k rpm, whilst the 993 will easliy pull from 1800rpm to the red line
Hope this helps. Both are truely great cars. I don't think we'll see anything like the GT3 in the future, as electronics are taking over.
Ellis
Nail on the Head! You have to engage and think about driving the 993 RS and even more so in the 964RS. Which is the reason I enjoy the cars so much.
If you want engaging, I really suggest you try an early car. I've just bought one and have to say it is a revelation - more involving than you can imagine, beautiful to look at and with a decent turn of pace. I can't stop grinning when I am in it, just wish I did it earlier.
Regards
Feroz
Thanks for the latest postings. Ellis, your findings are exactly what I was looking for. Your GT3 really likes brakes and tyres! They are clearly quite expensive to maintain, particularly where track use is concerned. Worth knowing if I ever care to swap.
There are very few, if any cars that light my fire and yes, Feros, the older 911's are on that short list. It was whilst seeking out a lhd 911 S that I stumbled across 'cheap' 964RS's 14 years ago. I had a close look at some of the Edmond Harris cars, he was using a 964RS rep (based on a 3.2!) at the time and the rest is history. I have never regretted my decision although I sometimes wonder about the older stuff. The risk of rust, 15mpg and possible limitations on modern tracdays tend to support my thoughts. At the time there were all sorts of issues surrounding the withdrawal of leaded petrol which did not help. A backdated and sorted 3.2 with G50 and aircon may be a good option for later life.
At the time a 2.4S in top condition (most were awful, over-valued rust buckets) and 964 RS's were very similar in value and it is debatable which one would fetch the most now.
Anyway, back to the RS, went for a 45min spin yesterday, taking advantage of the clean, dry roads, very nice too!
Still debating Spa, time running out.
Merry xmas one and all.
Ian
There are very few, if any cars that light my fire and yes, Feros, the older 911's are on that short list. It was whilst seeking out a lhd 911 S that I stumbled across 'cheap' 964RS's 14 years ago. I had a close look at some of the Edmond Harris cars, he was using a 964RS rep (based on a 3.2!) at the time and the rest is history. I have never regretted my decision although I sometimes wonder about the older stuff. The risk of rust, 15mpg and possible limitations on modern tracdays tend to support my thoughts. At the time there were all sorts of issues surrounding the withdrawal of leaded petrol which did not help. A backdated and sorted 3.2 with G50 and aircon may be a good option for later life.
At the time a 2.4S in top condition (most were awful, over-valued rust buckets) and 964 RS's were very similar in value and it is debatable which one would fetch the most now.
Anyway, back to the RS, went for a 45min spin yesterday, taking advantage of the clean, dry roads, very nice too!
Still debating Spa, time running out.
Merry xmas one and all.
Ian
You're dead right about some of the issues with older cars - rust, rust, fuel consumption and more rust!. To get the proper experience you need a period chassis and a decent MFI motor - I tried a few backdates and while fun, and potentially less hassle, they weren't quite the same. I doubt you will have issues on trackdays with the right car, lots of people do track them and they can be very fast.
A good car won't be cheap but should hold it's value, have sensible running costs and be a lot of fun. All the same virtues of the 964 RS!
Merry Christmas!!
Feroz
A good car won't be cheap but should hold it's value, have sensible running costs and be a lot of fun. All the same virtues of the 964 RS!
Merry Christmas!!
Feroz
The itch would not fully go away so I trecked down to Uxbridge today for a proper look at what proved to be a really honeat, crisp and gently used 997.1 GT3 Clubsport at 911 Virgin.
The car was great and Tom lived up to the company's excellent reputation. However, looking back the car did not really do it for me, at all. Quick, composed, attractive, lovely noise but something was missing. I was happy to get back in to my car and i haven't looked back which is a big suprise. I really expected to be very tempted. I see what people mean by the understeer by the way, easily induced.
Interestingly, Tom seemed to really like my car which is very honest, damage free, well serviced but no garage queen. He cnfirmed its accident free status and thought it had survived the years very well. For the record he was prepared to 'allow' £51k against the GT which seemed about what i expected from the trade. if i had been interested i would have tried to narrow that gap.
My car is due a major service, front discs, rear tyres, an origional steering wheel and gear knob plus a bit of paint as you would expect after 21yrs without any remedial paint. Tom would deal with all that and put it up for £59950.
But that isn't going to happen. The itch is now well and truly scratched. Here's to the next 14 years (I'll be 67 then so maybe not quite that long). I hope that resume is of interest to some of you, I promise not to half disloyal thoughts again.
The car was great and Tom lived up to the company's excellent reputation. However, looking back the car did not really do it for me, at all. Quick, composed, attractive, lovely noise but something was missing. I was happy to get back in to my car and i haven't looked back which is a big suprise. I really expected to be very tempted. I see what people mean by the understeer by the way, easily induced.
Interestingly, Tom seemed to really like my car which is very honest, damage free, well serviced but no garage queen. He cnfirmed its accident free status and thought it had survived the years very well. For the record he was prepared to 'allow' £51k against the GT which seemed about what i expected from the trade. if i had been interested i would have tried to narrow that gap.
My car is due a major service, front discs, rear tyres, an origional steering wheel and gear knob plus a bit of paint as you would expect after 21yrs without any remedial paint. Tom would deal with all that and put it up for £59950.
But that isn't going to happen. The itch is now well and truly scratched. Here's to the next 14 years (I'll be 67 then so maybe not quite that long). I hope that resume is of interest to some of you, I promise not to half disloyal thoughts again.
ORIGINAL: Hacki
ORIGINAL: ChrisW
it would not be much fun meeting "yourself" going quickly on the average country road, in one of those [
That´s what Richard von Frankenberg always used to say, " I drive this way, because I cannot meet myself on the road!".
Hacki, I need to send you Johnny Tipler's latest 911&PWorld feature about the Avus...
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