Hit & Run!

[lawtoma]

Hi all,

On sunday morning I was woken to the sound of a smash, ran to the window, saw my car with the front staved in and the b*st*rd who hit it driving off.
I got a number plate which the police and insurers are persuing, and the car went off to the garage this morning on the back of a low loader.

The damage looks (he says incredibly hopefully) as though it's limited to the front corner (bumper, wing, headlight, sidelight) and the spoiler and rear bumber (where the car was shunted into the car behind), so I'm hoping that that's the size of it and that the suspension etc will be ok. The door and bonnet gaps look fine, and there's no obvious damage in the engine bay. Time, and the garage, will tell...

The insurers tried to write it off over the phone, telling me it was a total loss as soon as I'd described the damage, but I soon convinced them otherwise. One thing the garage mentioned this morning, though, is that if the number plate doesn't match up or there is a sustainable denial of liability, then the insurer is likely only to pay up to 60% of the value - so if the damage is anything more than that it will be written off!

I obviously don't want that to happen, so I'm gathering some evidence of prices that similar cars are going for on pistonheads, autotrader etc. as I thought that the insurance company are likely to suggest a stupidly low amount. I also thought that I'd ask the question on here.

The car is a manual 1992 968 Coupe in dark blue with matching dark blue leather interior, c.125,000 miles, full porsche/specialist history and before the incident it was in very good condition - having been comprehensively done up a few years ago and well maintained since. What do you think it should be valued at, and do any of you have any experience of/tips on how I might go about convincing an insurance company to up their valuation?

Thanks very much!

 

[Fred Hindle]

Photographic evidence is a good start to get an agree value.

Hope the pillock that drove off gets what is coming to them.

Cheers,

 

[Chrishazle]

You show on here as a guest rather than PCGB member - the club offers a valuation service based on photos of the car plus scans/copies of the service history. This service is FOC to members (I've had valuations for both my 968's, and they've been accepted as the agreed value by my insurers Classic Line). Under the circumstances I would try calling the club and asking if you can pay for a valuation. Just to give you an example, the club valuation of my cabriolet was considerably more than I paid for it (and even allowing for what I've spent since I bought it, I would still not be out of pocket) but, with the addition of a few photos, was accepted by Classic Line and is the agreed value on my insurance.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Chris is correct, an agreed insurance value is a free part of Club membership.

I sincerely hope we don't start offering it to non-members, even at a charge. Sorry if that sounds harsh but I've been paying my membership ever since I bought my first Porsche and it's a valuable benefit! [8|]

I've been going through this recently, as my car was hit whilst stationary. In my case the guy admitted full liability, but it's still been a nightmare to claim. Sadly, unless you have a guaranteed-value policy you might be stuffed.

Insurers will only use book price; "we buy any car" is a good place to get an idea of the value they put on your car, and it's not a happy thing to hear. You also have to go through their process, which is where I came to grief. The insurer pays a set amount to a huge industrial-style repairer, who have to cut corners on every repair and transport your car (in my case a 200-mile round trip, all on the claim). The insurer then makes a profit by selling you on to the providers of the courteousy car, the injury-claim company, the uninsured-loss company, you get the idea. The insurer's repairer will also be obliged to use new parts. This is why so many 944s are written off with light damage, or even broken glass; a tailgate costs £000s new, but under a hundred pounds used, yet there is no option to fit used parts.

Because mine is on a classic policy, I've been able to use a local restorer. This caused massive problems, as the insurers will not make any money on the extras so didn't want me to use that route. Sadly, a lot of easily repairable cars are being written off due to the extras we expect as part of that fantastic insurance package we bought. That "we collect the car and deliver it back to you like new, and give you a courteousy car in the meantime" actually means the repair costs are inflated, giving them the excuse to write it off and pay you a derisory sum instead.

Sorry to be so negative, but the number of panels damaged sounds to me like a claim that will come to more than the insurer's cut-off point unless you have a specialist policy and an agreed value. The obvious option is to offer to take the insurer's payout and buy the car back, and repair it cheaply using local specialists and used parts. It will have the black-mark against it if you ever want to sell, but if it's otherwise a good car it might be a better outcome than having a small payout and then having to find a car that's as good? Obviously the Club Register is the place to get an accurate market price, and some advice as to how to proceed; I would do this for a 944 owner as their Register Secretary, and would help as far as possible for a non-member, so worth a call?

Good luck, it's a horrible position to be in and you're dealing with faceless idiots. It's soul-destroying, but don't let them bully you in to anything; it's taken me nearly 3 months so far even with a specialist classic policy, but I've finally got approval and the car goes in next week. I've been very close to giving up though. [&o]

 

[Chrishazle]

While I agree with much of what Paul says, and simpathsise with the probelms he has had, he has overlooked the point that I specifically said "under the circumstances" see if the club will help.

968 coupes are becoming increasingly rare. Helping to keep a good one away from the breakers would, in my opinion, be laudable. I would not agree to the club offering the valuation service willy-nilly, but in a case like this - where a proud owner of a cherished car could be helped to get the car back on the road - I think a strong argument could be made to help him.

This is also a lesson to all owners - you may have to pay a little more for insurance that includes an agreed value and the right to the "wreck" in the event insurers declare it a Cat D or C write-off, but as repairs can be carried out at much lower cost than insurers estimates, it's worthwhile having those options. My insurance with Classic Line is actually cheaper than any other quote I had when my insurance was recently up for renewal, so it's not necessarily at additional cost! ISTR the Porsche price for a replacement rear hatch for a 968 is many thousands of pounds, whereas one can be sourced from breakers for as little as £500, making a repair feasible even if respray is required.

Anyway Paul, what if the OP joins the club, submits a request for valuation with photos etc from before the prang...??? I can't remember anything on the form that asks for current condition of the car, just recent photos!

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Anyway Paul, what if the OP joins the club, submits a request for valuation with photos etc from before the prang...??? I can't remember anything on the form that asks for current condition of the car, just recent photos!

I'd never advocate people trying to join the club purely in order to try some sort of retrospective insurance fiddle. It just won't work....and please do understand that insurers monitor all our forums in case they can catch people out. [8|]

Chris does summarise it very well, there are options you get with proper "classic" policies that would help here. Whilst they aren't perfect, they do help. Have you seen my rant against Classic Line? Despite their total lack of help, I've saved a 944 that's had nearly £5K of recent mechanical work carried out from being scrapped, for light damage to one front wing. []

Work it out; a new wing is c. £450. Fitting and painting will be double that in the worst case, say £2000 all-in. The insurance estimate was an instant write-off, on an S2 with a value of £7K. That's how much the claims are ramped up with the extras you are "promised" in your policy. Which the insurer gets a kick-back on.

Realistically, had it not been a no-fault accident, any decent bodyshop could have repaired my car for less than a grand. That's for one front wing and paint; I can't see the list of damage on the OP's car being within the insurer's limits.

Again, the Club Register should be able to help. I don't know who's the 968 rep at the moment, but a call to him or her should be some help even to non-members.

 

[jdpef356]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

to help. I don't know who's the 968 rep at the moment, but a call to him or her should be some help even to non-members.

Another benefit of membership - you get all the telephone numbers of various Register and Region contacts in Porsche File!

P.S. The guest signs in from Cambridge - my Region!

 

[daly747]

I am sorry but we are unable to provide valuations to non members.

Brendan Daly
Operations Director

 

[John Sims]

While very sad, when I read the initial report of the damage, my first thoughts were that the car would be written off. Paul's comments are all spot on, as you would expect with first hand experience.

Our Freelander was rear ended by a white van, cracked the bumper and a slight dent to the tailgate. The repair was in excess of £5K. We had a brand new Discovery for two weeks and the repairers took that back when they returned the car. It transpired they then had the Discovery for another two weeks because of all the nonsense where everything is farmed out to different suppliers no one knew where the car was. Is it any wonder it cost so much. I have no idea how much a top of the range Discovery is for a week but I bet it is no less than £500 - IIRC we were charged £20 per day for insurance on the vehicle. I'll admit they did try to fob me off with a Ford Ka as a courtesy car in the first instance - So for a £5K repair it is conceivable 40% of the cost was the courtesy car.

And here is the other thing, if your policy provides a courtesy car have it whether you need it or not. While ever you have a car it is costing money so they speed up the repair. If you don't have a courtesy car your repair will be put behind those who do.......so how does this make insurance cheaper?

 

[lawtoma]

Thanks all! That information is helpful, and the limitations of being a non-member are well understood. I certainly wouldn't want to try any kind of retrospective "fiddle" but my request for help is, as Chrishazle suggested, with a view to trying to keep the car on the road.

The garage are taking a good look at the car today, so I'll have more of an idea once they've looked at it.

My hopeful demeanour has taken a similarly sized dent, but we shall see what happens. I'll certainly keep you posted.

Thanks again.

 

[944 man]

I dont believe that a members retrospective valuation is a 'fiddle'. There is no dishonesty, so there is no wrong doing, in my opinion.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

ORIGINAL: 944 man

I dont believe that a members retrospective valuation is a 'fiddle'. There is no dishonesty, so there is no wrong doing, in my opinion.

Certainly a grey area, as there is likely to be no way an insurer would accept a valuation of a car that was never seen, after it had been involved in an accident. Right or wrong, they would expect you to get the car valued when the policy was taken out, and there's no way anyone would backdate a valuation.

I've had some success in raising pay-outs considerably, using more in-depth research in to the car's pre-accident condition and the market, but I think I've had as many cases where the insurer has rejected any attempt to value the car as more than book-value after the event. A salutory lesson, people really do need to go to "we con any car.com" and get their valuation, being more than honest about any tiny defects, and then think about getting a proper valuation and agreed policy. That is the value you will be paid out in the event of a total loss, and more importantly it's the value they use to calculate whether the car is economically repairable.

Valuations are free, for crying out loud, so why on earth would you not get it down in writing?

 

[simkin911]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

ORIGINAL: 944 man

I dont believe that a members retrospective valuation is a 'fiddle'. There is no dishonesty, so there is no wrong doing, in my opinion.

Valuations are free, for crying out loud, so why on earth would you not get it down in writing?

Yes, they are free Paul but it's not that easy and simple to obtain one. For example, I had a 3 month wait in 2011 for the valuation for my s2 and this year - I've been waiting since mid July for my Turbo valuation and still no sign of it!

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I've been waiting since mid July for my Turbo valuation and still no sign of it!

That's ridiculous. If it's not back within a few weeks of it going in the call and chase it. If it's not resolved then call a director (don't tell them I told you to call, but unless they change the system so RSs can do valuations they will have to chase them for us! )

 

[MartinRS2K]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

I've been waiting since mid July for my Turbo valuation and still no sign of it!

That's ridiculous. If it's not back within a few weeks of it going in the call and chase it. If it's not resolved then call a director (don't tell them I told you to call, but unless they change the system so RSs can do valuations they will have to chase them for us! )

Sorry to change the thread content but I am amazed at this??

Paul

I'm about to apply for an agreed valuation for my 944 Turbo by the Club and can not believe that you are not authorised to do these!!!

I am the Registrar for the Ford RS Owners Club looking after the MK2 RS2000 and I do valuations for all cars belonging to members whether the car is worth £4k or in the case of low mileage original cars in excess of £30k.

You are probably one of the most experienced 944 people in the Club and your recommendations must surely count for more than a Directors point of view who may have a fraction of your knowledge on current market values and the specifics of the 944.

 

[Peter_Bull]

ORIGINAL: MartinRS2K

You are probably one of the most experienced 944 people in the Club and your recommendations must surely count for more than a Directors point of view who may have a fraction of your knowledge on current market values and the specifics of the 944.

Directors do not do valuations. These are currently done by Steve Kevlin at club office.

 

[MartinRS2K]

ORIGINAL: Peter Bull

ORIGINAL: MartinRS2K

You are probably one of the most experienced 944 people in the Club and your recommendations must surely count for more than a Directors point of view who may have a fraction of your knowledge on current market values and the specifics of the 944.

Directors do not do valuations.  These are currently done by Steve Kevlin at club office.

So one person does the valuations for all he different models of Porsche?

No disrespect to Steve but surely he cannot know every model in depth to give an accurate valuation on each model?

 

[Frenchy]

Aye seconded, this should be left in the registrars hands who should have an in-depth knowledge of each particular model, has Steve Kelvin owned a transaxle Porsche ?

 

[Swindon_Mick]

I can't comment on Steve's knowledge of the current market for 944s (or any other model), but he won the Porsche Club champtionship in 1989 in an S2, and again in 1990 in an S2 cab!

Mick

 

[235tonyw]

Hi Not sure if this helps as you may be past this point depending on what the garage repair quote was??

I pranged my V70 4 yrs ago (no other vehicle or person involved) went through the usual claim procedure with my insurers who wanted me to take it to a very well known large local repair center beside the A140 at Eye in Suffolk but I insisted I wanted the repair done by my regular local garage in Diss who service the car and by standing my ground that's what happened! The garage provided a quotation I emailed pictures of the damage and after 2-3 weeks the repair was authorised and the work done! The bill was £1800 I paid the excess and the insurers paid the rest!
So if you are struggling with them trying to write it off? Try that approach, the chosen repairer (by you ) can then pitch the quote price to get under the insurers right off price sourcing parts as required to effect a safe but economical repair!

I my opinion as the customer paying the premium we do have rights and if exercising them (forcefully) provides a repair that does the job properly by undercutting all the expensive add on's that go with the insurers nominated repairer then so be it! I'm not sure if works with all insurers - at the time I suspect that my V70 (June 2000) may well have been written off if sent to the nominated repairers?