I think I'm coming back... (996TT)

jonc4s · May 4, 2011

Some of the longer term members on the 996 board may remember me, I ran a C4S for a year or so before selling it last August to finance the purchase of an Aston Martin Vantage. I love my Aston but there are a number of factors that mean I will be looking to sell it once I return from Le Mans in June of this year and I'm looking at 996TTs. From my research they are pretty bulletproof, look great, very quick and I've never owned a 911 Turbo which from a young age has always been a target of mine!

Main reasons behind the switch back are:

1. I need some back seats, 2 seater is difficult as my only car.
2. Could do with pulling some cash back out of the Aston, I've got approx £46k in it and need some for the house!
3. Cheaper maintenance/servicing/fuel economy etc.
4. 4WD for when Winter comes back around - My C4S was great in the snow!
5. Reliability - Always some little niggle with the Aston, squeeky brakes, broken window, annoying really. My C4S was bulletproof.
6. I love Porsches!

To assist in my search over the next couple of months I've a couple of questions that I'd appreciate some help with:

1. X50 Powerpack - 420 - 450bhp I beleive?? Is just a remap or are other components also uprated? Typically how much is this worth on a used example, an extra £1k for example? My Aston has been dyno'd at 420 so I need to have more power to make the transition exceptable!

2. When did the PCM change? 2003/2004?

3. Is the latest 996TT an 04 or 54?

4. I saw a 300k 996TT on rennlist - wow! for an 03/04 car what would be ideal mileage on a TT? Am I right to stay away from really low mileage examples?

5. Are there any must have options on TTs that would afect resale in the futur if I didn't have them?

6. Whats the difference between a Turbo and a Turbo S?

7. For about the same money I could get into a 997 C2S, am I making the right decision going for the earlier Turbo?!?!?

Any help, advice, feedback etc appreciated! Looking forward to getting back into Porsche ownership soon!

daro911 · May 4, 2011

ORIGINAL: jonc4s

For about the same money I could get into a 997 C2S, am I making the right decision going for the earlier Turbo?!?!?

Any help, advice, feedback etc appreciated! Looking forward to getting back into Porsche ownership soon!

Personally I would go for the 997 C2S it's a different generation to the 996 and as ever has moved the game on. After an AMV the 997's would prove to be more than adequate in all driver focussed areas where it really counts IMO but you are the best judge so take a little time out and go drive both 996 & 997 and I am sure the answer will be obvious to you too Good luck with the hunt for your Porsche come back [

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Richard_Hamilton · May 4, 2011

1. X50 Powerpack - 420 - 450bhp I beleive?? Is just a remap or are other components also uprated? Typically how much is this worth on a used example, an extra £1k for example? My Aston has been dyno'd at 420 so I need to have more power to make the transition exceptable!

Not just a remap - lots of different bits, but mainly larger (K24) Turbos.

2. When did the PCM change? 2003/2004?

PCM2.0 was introduced for MY2003 (From Sept 2002)

3. Is the latest 996TT an 04 or 54?

The 996T continued production into MY2005 (Sept 2004-on) but only small numbers were made. 996TS was MY2005 only.

4. I saw a 300k 996TT on rennlist - wow! for an 03/04 car what would be ideal mileage on a TT? Am I right to stay away from really low mileage examples?

No need to avoid ultra-low mileage examples. Completely different engine to the Carrera. Personally, I would prefer to find one which is lightly but regularly used, as I don't think they like sitting idle for long periods - brakes, etc.

5. Are there any must have options on TTs that would afect resale in the futur if I didn't have them?

Later cars were all well-specced. Anything else is guilding the lily IMO.

6. Whats the difference between a Turbo and a Turbo S?

Turbo=seriously quick.
Turbo S=explosive.

7. For about the same money I could get into a 997 C2S, am I making the right decision going for the earlier Turbo?!?!?

Different animals. My nephew has a 997C2S and it is a great car, especially for daily use, but it doesn't get the adrenaline pumping quite like a Turbo.

My 2p's worth

Spy · May 4, 2011

What Richard said ^^

The only thing I would question is the 997 C2S option. They are indeed more modern inside but they don't have 420+ BHP which you stated you wanted. Also, the engines aren't as bullet proof as the GT1 based Turbo engine.

Rodney Naghar · May 4, 2011

Option X50 £8,709.10 Performance kit (includes modified turbos, intercoolers, ECU and gearbox, 331 kW (450bhp)
The 'S' is basically a turbo with an X50 pack with ceramics and and chipped to 489bhp

I agree with the above. I've had use of a Gen2 997 C2 for 1,000 miles, I'd much rather have had a 996 turbo of any guise instead. Blisteringly fast, stonking engine, lower depreciation, great looks, very reliable and compared to its performance - cheap to run.

DivineE · May 4, 2011

I would be careful with the 997 C2, early signs are that the rare cylinder cracking problems with the 996 engine are going to be more frequent on the 997. Speak to Hartech. I've seen failed 996 engines and 997 next to each other on the desk and its seems that contrary to solving the problem (as the salesman told me) Porsche seem to have gone with the same design, added more power (increasing the stress) and then made it worse by thinning the cylinder walls and reducing the cooling around them in the 3.8! Great!..sigh[&o]

I'm sure it'll still affect relatively few engines in the scheme of things but I'll stick to the GT1 based gt3 and turbo variants personally.

There are quite a few costly changes between the 420 and 450hp cars, different turbo's, intercoolers and I think the cats are different as well.. but drive one both cars are a world apart in speed compared to the Astons. My standard 420hp car compared with a friend's DB9 is simply a joke. Not sure why? Optimistic power figures from AM, weight difference.. something anyway. I love Astons but there's no comparison for outright pace.

I don't think options make a great difference when trying to sell, mine is the first car I've owned which has had every option available (even the sunroof) but has been harder to sell than a rock bottom spec model priced £1000 cheaper.

What I would be careful on is condition and history. I've seen some worryingly tatty examples out there which you wouldn't think would happen at this end of the market, why skimp on simple maintenance when it's so cheap/easy to maintain compared to any other car at this level? Seems stupid really but it's happened I saw two.

Another thing to note on power is that the 420hp car which has smaller turbo's can be upped to around 500hp with simple exhaust/re-mapping alterations without adversely affecting reliability and the smaller turbo's spool up faster meaning less lag and a quicker rate of change in acceleration (which makes it 'feel' faster than the big turbo car).

In fact I'm rather annoyed this week because I was about to take my 996tt off sale and chip it instead (I even bought a private plate for the car an hour before I called to pick it up) but when I phoned they told me it looks like it's finally sold! Typical timing, but I suppose it's what I should have been doing anyway.[

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SteveFeakin · May 4, 2011

As always Richard is bang on the money. I had similar thought 2 years ago when ipicked up my 996 TT. So pleased I went for it for all the mentioned reasons. But it looks the business and regardless of year it is a 911 turbo. What dreams are made of. Good and happy hunting. Steve

jonc4s · May 5, 2011

Firstly thanks to all for the info and advice - very useful!

Daro - Understand your point about the 7 C2S but I'm pretty sure I want a Turbo for that money. I've owned a 6 C4S before so know what to expect in terms of age etc and I'm happy with it. If I didn't have to pull some money out of my car fund for the house I would be looking at sub 50k 997TTs but unfortunately the cash is needed elsewhere. So a 30k 996TT is very appealing.

Richard - Helpful as ever thanks! I think I'm pretty certain that I want an X50 car given all the uprated components and the 9k upgrade cost when new. I'll also be looking at MY03 onwards due to the PCM as I had PCM1 in my C4S so an upgrade in that department would be nice. Mileage wise on an 03/04 care I want to try and pick something up with about 45 on the clock.

Spy - Further research into the GT1 engine and it's bulletproof reputation only increase the likeliness that the 997 C2S is a no go for me. I think that option is out of the window from now on.

Rodney - Thanks for the info. I thought I wanted an S purely for the extra power but ceramics brakes scare me as a used owner, I'd hate to have to replace those! I presume tweaking an X50 car with a remap could produce 489+ BHP relatively easily???

Divine - Another reason to forget the C2S so thanks. Interesting point on the none X50 cars achieving 500hp with a simple exhaust and remap. If I find a clean example with the right spec that is none X50 then maybe I shouldn't rule it out. Hear what you are saying on Astons, there seems to be quite a variance on power outputs from 1 car to another so that could be a reason alongside the extra weight the DB is carrying!! I've been in a 420bhp 996TT a few years back and it felt rapid!

A Couple more questions I have

1. Comms - Do you get bluetooth prep in PCM2? My PCM had the phone but had a simcard input which didn't support Orange!!! I could really do with phone prep as the car will be a daily driver.

2. Am I right to assume there are more Tips than manual in circulation? Seems that way on the Trader right now. Did the Tip ever get upgraded through the years of 996? I had Tip in the C4S and liked it but my Aston is manual and I do enjoy the involvement of the manual box again.

3. Is the Bose really worth hunting for? Didn't have it in my C4S but upgraded audio is never a bad thing IMO.

4. Sports Seats? I'm sure I've seen some sportier seats before but most of the used cars I'm seeing seem to have the standard seats which are great huggers. I thought you had standard/sports/buckets as options, is this true?

5. This is the sort of thing I'd be looking at - http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201111382364773/sort/priceasc/usedcars/maximum-age/up_to_10_years_old/price-from/25000/model/911/make/porsche/page/3/keywords/turbo/postcode/b912tn/radius/1500?logcode=p
Anything going against this one??

Once again, really appreciate the advice. I remember this forum to be a great source of help and info and it clearly hasnt changed in the last 12 mnths!

Spy · May 5, 2011

Turbo is definitely the way to go.

Some response to your questions:

1. PCM (even in gen 1 997s) does not have bluetooth. It is still operated by a sim card.

2. I believe you are correct, there are more Tips than manual Turbos

3. I am pretty sure Bose was standard on the Turbo and it is a fairly good system.

4. Typically on the Turbo, standard seats were included but there was an optional upgrade to sports seats which are hardback seats with the wings on the shoulders. Many people prefer the sports seats and therefore it is often a desireable option.

5. That car looks well priced but has 66k miles. Not a show stopper as these cars like to be driven but you may want to consider how many miles you will be putting on the car. As it gets close to the 100k mark, they become harder to sell. Also, it's a Tip, personally I prefer manual but nothing wrong with that if you want it. Apart from the ad, the critical thing is what condition the car is in, as you will know, people's views of what constitutes good/excellent condition vary wildly. Also, Full Porsche service history can often vary. I would recommend finding one that has been serviced annually and worth checking on the one advertised.

Finally, have you considered whether you want a Porsche warranty on the car ?
If you do, you need to make sure the car does not have any after market, non-Porsche mods.

Good luck [

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Rodney Naghar · May 5, 2011

Hey Jon,

Don't rule out PCCBs especially for road use. You are never going to give them the abuse on the road (read heat spikes) needed to cause them to delaminate and need replacing. They should last you many tens of thousands of miles and the pads last much longer too. I've used mine on track quite a few times and they are still in top condition - as long as you give them cooling down time, they are fine. Even if they suddenly die, you just replace them for steels as everyone else does. You'd have to replace steel disks anyway, so it's not costing you any more.

So you're basically getting all the upside for very little/no downside.

1. Lower unsprung weight (better handling)
2. Much less brake dust
3. No brake fade.
4. No rusty discs after you wash the car or leave it undriven for a while requiring skimming or replacing.
5. Much much longer lifespan than steel disks.
6. Pads last much longer.
7. Discs don't 'warp'
8. If you accidently leave your handbrake on after a run, the pad won't melt on the disc leaving lumpy deposits. (as the disks cool down much quicker)

DivineE · May 5, 2011

My car has/had the sports seats. I have a dodgy back from breaking it in three places a few years ago and I can confirm they are a lot more supportive than the standard seats. I suffer in a lot of cars on a long drive but had no trouble at all doing 4-500mile journeys in my 996.

p.s. That particular car looks very good age/mileage for the money but definitely get it checked out mechanically if you're serious. I also wouldn't personally have an auto but you do get more for your money as they seem to always be a few thousand less.

DivineE · May 5, 2011

ORIGINAL: Rodney Naghar

Hey Jon,

Don't rule out PCCBs especially for road use. You are never going to give them the abuse on the road (read heat spikes) needed to cause them to delaminate and need replacing. They should last you many tens of thousands of miles and the pads last much longer too. I've used mine on track quite a few times and they are still in top condition - as long as you give them cooling down time, they are fine. Even if they suddenly die, you just replace them for steels as everyone else does. You'd have to replace steel disks anyway, so it's not costing you any more.

So you're basically getting all the upside for very little/no downside.

1. Lower unsprung weight (better handling)
2. Much less brake dust
3. No brake fade.
4. No rusty discs after you wash the car or leave it undriven for a while requiring skimming or replacing.
5. Much much longer lifespan than steel disks.
6. Pads last much longer.
7. Discs don't 'warp'
8. If you accidently leave your handbrake on after a run, the pad won't melt on the disc leaving lumpy deposits. (as the disks cool down much quicker)

Don't they take time to warm up and become effective on the road though? I've heard horror stories about having to do emergency stops on cold rainy days, in the first 10 mins when the car is cold and it literally feeling like you have no brakes (from a Gallardo owner with ceramics).

Rodney Naghar · May 5, 2011

Absolutely not true. The brakes work perfectly straight away, maybe better in the summer than the winter but that applies to all brakes.

That issue should only apply to carbon/carbon brakes.

The only difference I've found is that once you've washed the car and the discs are wet you need to be extra careful to apply slight pressure on the brakes as you move off for a few seconds to remove the excess water or there is very little braking.

jonc4s · May 5, 2011

Cheers Spy. Does PCM2 support Orange sim cards as I do have a dual sim I could use? If the Bose is standard then great! I used that example to get some feedback from you guys, it's a month or so too early for me to consider purchasing yet and slightly higher mileage than I wanted, 45k max. I always buy on condition and I'd be looking for one to have a full Porsche main dealer history or a history from a very well respecetd indi at the very least.

Unless I find a TIP with perfect spec and in immaculate condition I will be holding out for a manual. Does anyone know if the tip was upgraded at all through the model years? I had a 52 plate C4S previously. Shame the manuals are attracting a premium in the used market though...

Warranty wise - I'd probably just put an aftermarket one on in case something massive went on it. My C4S didn't have a warranty and was bulletproof, admittedly I could get unlucky with the new TT.

Rodney - I like the sound of them, have heard nothing but praise for PCCBs but the prospect of replacement concerned me before I'd known you could swap out for steels!! So if they were to go you can put a set of traditional discs/pads on and use the existing calipers? That doesn't sound too bad at all in that case.

Divine - My old 996 had the standard seats and I never had a problem but I much prefer the look of the sports seats. I also love the crests in the seats so will be looking for that.

I'm already looking forward to the hunt now my spec is narrowed down, there is a lot of fun to be had in the chase afterall!

Rodney Naghar · May 5, 2011

Up to 2001 the tip boxes were ZF auto gearboxes.

The 3.6 facelift cars have the Mercedes 722.6 gearbox fitted, that was now CAN wired.

Very reliable boxes, but would do better if the oil was changed after 60k or so (not 96k as the manual suggests) as they tend to become sluggish and behave strangely if left with the old black sludgey oil that long.

Yes it really is as simple as changing out the discs and leaving the calipers!

Spy · May 5, 2011

ORIGINAL: jonc4s

Cheers Spy. Does PCM2 support Orange sim cards as I do have a dual sim I could use?

Yes, it does support Orange SIM cards. in fact I have a dual Orange sim in mine. the only problem is that if someone rings me, my main phone rings instead of the car phone unless I switch teh main phone off in which case the car phone rings !
Dials out OK though.

ORIGINAL: jonc4s
Warranty wise - I'd probably just put an aftermarket one on in case something massive went on it. My C4S didn't have a warranty and was bulletproof, admittedly I could get unlucky with the new TT.

In general, on the Turbo, it is not big things that go but relatively smaller things like the rads, divertor valves, coils etc. The Porsche warranty will typically cover these whereas an aftermarket warranty won't.

ORIGINAL: jonc4s
Rodney - I like the sound of them, have heard nothing but praise for PCCBs but the prospect of replacement concerned me before I'd known you could swap out for steels!! So if they were to go you can put a set of traditional discs/pads on and use the existing calipers? That doesn't sound too bad at all in that case.

Converting ceramics to steel costs about £2,300 inc VAT
Fearnsport do it (as I am sure other reputable specialists do as well) and is listed on their website here: http://www.fearnsport.co.uk/sales.html

Extract here:

996 Turbo S PCCB conversion kit (changes discs from 350mm ceramic to 350mm steel, front and rear, plus changes pads to steel/track compound front and rear) + £195 fitted
Ex Vat: £1995
Inc VAT: £2344.13

ORIGINAL: jonc4s
I'm already looking forward to the hunt now my spec is narrowed down, there is a lot of fun to be had in the chase afterall!

Good luck and let us know how you get on [

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sawood12 · May 6, 2011

Sorry to piggy-back on this thread (hope the OP doesn't mind) but i'm eyeing a 996TT purchase also, but with my budget I'm considering a tip to get the best example car my budget can achieve, which isn't ideal, but I figure since I wont be doing very many, if any, trackday's then the Tip might be better for road use (lets face it, the opportunities for proper driving on public roads are few and far between risking your license at every turn).

How is the Tip box in a 996TT for road use? is it quite a quick change and quite controllable, do you loose any or much of the stunning 996TT performance, or is it slack with ratio's a million miles apart from eachother? Not bothered about fuel consumption as it will strictly be a third 'fun' car enjoying few quality miles rather than quantity, and providing me with some therapy from the practical tools I drive around every day!

Thanks.

kenwardc · May 6, 2011

Hi Scott

I have the Tiptronic and am absolutely 100% happy with it. It's never going to give you quite the experience you get with a manual but it makes up for that in other ways. Driving in traffic in auto is just brilliant and, when you want to overtake something, a quick dip on the loud pedal leads to volcanic eruptions of epic proportions. When driving in manual mode it's easy and still fun. I would go Tiptronic again if / when I buy again.

Cheers
Chris

sawood12 · May 6, 2011

Thanks for that Chris. I've driven a few modern cars recently with auto gearboxes and have been very impressed so was wondering if the 11 or so yr old technology of the Porsche tiptronic boxes would compare. Of course for a track car then you'd soon get frustrated with them, but for fast road use I found them to be very competent and almost quite fun as I found with some practice I could influence the behaviour of the box by modifying my throttle movements to either change more slowly and comfortably or quicker and sharper when you're in a rush.

minny · May 6, 2011

I have had the Tip in my '99 C2 and now in the turbo. And I would buy another. You are right that the changes are probably not as quick as later cars but in the turbo, there is so much torque from 2000rpm it really doesn't matter. But this is only a personal preference. Best thing to do is to drive it to see if it works for you. My turbo is a daily driver including during the worst of the weather with 8 inches of snow so the Tip really comes into its own in traffic. I probably am lucky in that I have a rally prepared MK3 Mini Cooper S in manual for involvement. Even then I haven't used it in 3 years! Do drive the turbo and the s version in manual and Tip and then make your mind.