Ideal brake set-up?

bennyboy · Jan 30, 2009

I'm planning to sort my brakes very soon, and wondered what you chaps believe will be the best set-up in terms of what the car will be doing and costs. I do less than 5k miles a year, and as of this summer will likely be doing a track day every 6 weeks or so. I have the M030 set-up currently, with drilled disks, but I'm planning to replace the disks and pads. This is my thoughts...

1. Replace disks - ideally I'd like drilled M030 like I have now, but IIRC these are ridiculously expensive, so I may settle for solid M030 disks.

2. Pads, not sure, fast road/occasional track day compromise, any suggestions?

3. Braided hoses - any suggestions?

4. Fluid - any suggestions?

5. Cooling - I have the M030 ducts in the bumper through to the arch lining. Plan is to hook up some ducting from the arch lining to the disk, perhaps using the Lindsey Cooling plates? Suggestions?

Many thanks

Fen · Jan 30, 2009

Braided hoses, yes.

Drilled disks - I have them, but if you're going to use them then use genuine ones with the Porsche warranty that are cast with the holes rather than actually drilled ones.

Pads - not anything with an EBC logo! My personal recommendation is Performance Friction (I use 97 compound) as they bite well from cold on the road and just get better as they get hot to the extent that it's literally amazing. Downsides are price, very aggressive dust and a tendency to squeal at light applications. Porterfield are similar I believe though I haven't used them to give a direct comparison. Nobody who has tried either has been anything other than blown away that I can recall.

Fluid - I forget what I used now; the blue stuff that supposedly also comes in gold so you can see when fresh stuff has pumped through when you change it, but nobody stocks the gold.

Cooling - you're part way there with the M030 ducts. Another option to the Lindsey plates (which sound fine, but most Lindsey stuff is such rubbish I naturally hesitate to recommend it) is the 968 plastic ducts. The plates apply cooling air to one section of disk but do effectively mask the rest of the area from maximum heat rejection by covering the back of the disk which I'd hazard is their downside. With the 968 ducts you need to find another way to hold them on if you don't have the 968 lower arms. I have a set somewhere that I didn't get round to fitting, but others have done it on 944 arms. I removed the original backing plate, partly because of fitting bigger discs but also as I think it hinders cooling.

Your other option is big red/blacks. I went big black and 964 Turbo drilled disks

PJS917 · Jan 30, 2009

Ben

2nd Fen with 968 cooling and I have a way of fitting them to 944 arms so that gets over that issue. Likewise no pads with EBC on......ever. Pagid Blue are an excellent track pad but if it is only the odd track day I would be tempted by Mintex 1166 pads. They are supposed to be good on the road as well.

Certainly go for braided hoses, try someone like RSM who make them up on the premises and the quality is superb, They will also point you in the direction of very good brake fluid.

appletonn · Jan 30, 2009

ORIGINAL: PJS917

Ben

2nd Fen with 968 cooling and I have a way of fitting them to 944 arms so that gets over that issue. Likewise no pads with EBC on......ever. Pagid Blue are an excellent track pad but if it is only the odd track day I would be tempted by Mintex 1166 pads. They are supposed to be good on the road as well.

Certainly go for braided hoses, try someone like RSM who make them up on the premises and the quality is superb, They will also point you in the direction of very good brake fluid.

Peter, please spill the beans on that one as that's the only real missing piece in my braking jigsaw - I had sourced some ducts last year, until I realised that my 944 arms were missing the lug to fasten them to....![8|]

Big Dave · Jan 30, 2009

M030 set up is ample for your use..

Try Euro car parts for the drilled discs,, but DONT fit the Zimmerman ones.
The Sebro are [as far as im aware] the ones Porsche fit, and are a darn site cheaper than OPC prices..
Or
Fit the 928S4 plain disc, [ just as good but without the holes]...+ cheaper...

As mentioned above, steer well clear of the EBC pads...[

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Although everybody has there favourite..

Fluid. The best is Castrol SRF, but its not cheap... Ive used the ATE blue in the past, with good results, aprox £15 /litre.

Pete has a good way of attatching the 968 cooling "fins" to the 944arms...[

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appletonn · Jan 30, 2009

Ben, I went down the route of Goodridge braided hoses, Super Blue Fluid and Porterfield Pads together with the standard (on my car) Medium Black calipers.

My car is still a heavy old Hector with leccy seats etc, but the brakes were superb at Donington in October, repeatedly stopping the car with confidence from 130'ish for the last chicane - the Porterfields do squeal like a stuck pig when cold, mind you!

As my car was a late one, Porsche had omitted to fit the front rectangular cooling ducts (through to wheelarch) so I had to source & fit a s/h set of those.

Just need to fit the 968 deflectors now.....[8|]

...once Peter (PJS917) tells me how[

]

John Sims · Jan 30, 2009

ORIGINAL: Big Dave UK

....As mentioned above, steer well clear of the EBC pads...[][]....

Fluid. The best is Castrol SRF, but its not cheap...

Ditto EBC pads. I have Red Stuff Ceramics and they are unpredictable to the point of being dangerous. They are most noticeably bad as you reach a roundabout at the end of a long dual carriageway. Nice long fast road to get them nice and cool followed by a complete stop from relatively high speed. Under such circumstances the pads have no initial bite at all and seem reluctant to develop much stopping power after that. Good practice is a prestop prod to get some heat into them but I don't always remember [

]

I almost ditched the EBCs for a set of Performance Friction but at £200 for Big Red/Black size I can't really ditch little worn EBC's which were £100.

SRF - Brilliant!! I have tried almost every conventional, and race, fluid available and boiled them all except SRF. It is expensive, but far less hassle than constantly bleeding brakes. It does still need looking at at least one a year though.

Hilux · Jan 30, 2009

I almost ditched the EBCs for a set of Performance Friction but at £200 for Big Red/Black size I can't really ditch little worn EBC's which were £100.

Believe me you cant believe how good the PF pads are, once fitted you wont go back to anything else on track anyway.

They grip more as they heat up without added pedal pressure - in fact when slowing with a light brake pedal push like when coming up to a junction you find you have to ease off - amazing.

appletonn · Jan 30, 2009

ORIGINAL: Hilux

I almost ditched the EBCs for a set of Performance Friction but at £200 for Big Red/Black size I can't really ditch little worn EBC's which were £100.

Click to expand...

Believe me you cant believe how good the PF pads are, once fitted you wont go back to anything else on track anyway.

They grip more as they heat up without added pedal pressure - in fact when slowing with a light brake pedal push like when coming up to a junction you find you have to ease off - amazing.

...and you get a nice Catherine Wheel display in the dark [

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edh · Jan 30, 2009

+1 for PF97 - I am very impressed with these pads for track work (and it's quieter on the road than my 1155's were). I've never felt so confident in my braking as my last trackday at Donington in Nov - once I started really hitting the brake pedal hard, as the track dried out, the stopping performance was immense. I had to start re-calibrating my braking points as I was too slow into some corners. Up till then I had only used the PF's on wet tracks so hadn't really tested them. I'd stick with OE rear pads - mine have been on the car for 2-3 years and are only about half worn.

I've used the PF 97's with plain Sebro disks from Bert - These are now nearly 3 years old. I will need some more soon as they have quite a lip, but they have very few cracks, so have held up well. Wear rate on the PF97 pads is very good (I think they may wear the discs a bit quicker though

) the brake dust is quite nasty stuff - I'm prepared to put up with that.

I fitted the 968 ducts - they are a 2 piece design & don't need the 944 ducting as well. see this thread http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=320297
(I have the later lower arms)

Fluid - I've used Motul RBF 600 for years - it's cheap & has a high boiling point.

Lines - the car has goodridge lines fitted.

All you need now are some 16" track wheels

edh · Jan 30, 2009

I just read the post properly [

] - you have the 944 ducts already.

You should be able to run some hose from these to the rear of the disc - fire it into the middle of the disc. I guess the only issue is going from a rectagular duct to a round hose - I know paul (diver944) did this, so maybe he can shed some light on it?

IMHO brake ducting is one of the cheapest & most effective ways of improving track performance, particularly on heavy cars.

sawood12 · Jan 30, 2009

I like the Lindsey plates - or i've actually seen some better ones somewhere but a similar idea. With brake cooling you want to get the air blowing through the centre channels of the disk so they cool internally. If you simply blow air at one side of the disk you are cooling one side of the disk more than other therefore are more likely to get distortion and vibration under braking or warped disks. By channelling the cooling air through the centre of the disk you cool both sides of the disk equally.

The Lindsey plates with ducting attempts to do this by channeling the air into the centre of the inside of the disk where cooling air can enter the internal channels. This is what the 968 ducts attempt to do. However the problem with the Lindsey plates is that you need to disassemble your hub to install them and you have the added complication of the ducting. If I had a rece car or dedicated track car i'd fit NACA ducts onto the top of the flared wheel arches and have the ducting drop vertically down and into the Lindsey plates.

I have Big Blacks and I don't think i'd ever have any braking problems with them even with stock pads and disks. However if I was replacing brakes again i'd probably go for a Boxster/Cayman S caliper setup and some aftermarket 2-piece discs which are much lighter. But unfortuately i don't do enough trackdays to justify the expense. BB's were cheap (at the time at least due to the 2 for 1 $ to £ exchange rate at that time) so I went with them.

Link to the Lindsey plates:-
http://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Parts/COOLING.html

TTM · Jan 30, 2009

ORIGINAL: sawood12
However the problem with the Lindsey plates is that you need to disassemble your hub to install them and you have the added complication of the ducting.

Also you have to remove dust shields.
Ducting is not really an issue though, you can just attach the opening at the bottom fins of the bumper. I did just that when I took off the Cup-like duct panels to fit back the foglights.

PJS917 · Jan 30, 2009

ORIGINAL: appletonn

Just need to fit the 968 deflectors now.....[8|]

...once Peter (PJS917) tells me how[]

I guess pictures needed, I bought some adapters from the states a while ago, I only used them for a short time because I have fitted 968 arms to my 944. The adapter uses the roll bar mount to fit the 968 cooling ducts. Making some up would be very easy.

bennyboy · Jan 31, 2009

Thanks for the tips chaps. I think I'll go for the M030 drilled disks if I can find them cheap enough, or the 928S4 solids if not. Perhaps some Goodridge lines (do I need rears also?) and the PF97's. Just need to finalise my cooling.

Paul - do you have a picture of your set-up from the arch-lining?

Thanks

Big Dave · Jan 31, 2009

Ben.
The Braided lines come as a kit, with front + rears...

appletonn · Feb 1, 2009

Ben, have you had your car on track yet?

I had a fantastic morning at Oulton on Saturday - they changed it into an open pitlane event as there were not that many cars booked on.

I also invested in some tuition (money well spent!) and learnt a lot - he drove it for 3 laps and then it was my turn. Car went like a dream but I have now gone practically as far as I can (bar the brake cooling ducting!) whilst leaving it with full interior and electric seats etc.

The instructor was very complimentary about the old girl but did say that he thought the rear springing could do with being slightly stiffer (already got rear coils to supplement the t/bars and is pretty stiff as is for road use!) but the upside of that was that it finds excellent traction on a dry track and I could pull yards out of the following Nissan Skyline and Sierra Cosworth lap after lap, especially through the Druids complex (mercifully dry this time!) - or perhaps that was all down to the tuition!

Mine is road car first and track car second, so all it really needs is to lose 200kg of weight somehow but that would compromise it as a roadcar....[8|][

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Yours should be a proper track weapon once it's finished!

Big Dave · Feb 1, 2009

Nick, Sounds like your getting faster....
Ill have to watch my mirrors next time we meet...[

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appletonn · Feb 1, 2009

ORIGINAL: Big Dave UK

Nick, Sounds like your getting faster....
Ill have to watch my mirrors next time we meet...[][][][]

Somehow, I think I have some way to go before I can hang onto the tail of the Oulton guru....[

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bennyboy · Feb 1, 2009

Yours should be a proper track weapon once it's finished!

I'm certainly hoping so Nick! I've removed a lot of stuff from mine, but only really behind the front seats - so it's still pretty habitable! I reckon my new seats will have saved me about 30kg and door cards perhaps another kg each, but the rear cage will ceratinly add a bit more back in - perhaps 10kg (have you weighed it Pete?). Would be chuffed to dip under 1200kgs!