Inlet and exhaust upgrades???

[333pg333]

Hi guys. Just wondering if anyone's made any changes to their exhaust systems? I am thinking inlet and header or extractors as we call them. There are some very nice and very expensive ones at SpeedforceRacing out of the U.S.A. The only thing my mechanic is wary of is that these are designed and built for LHD cars and that we may struggle to fit them with our steering columns where they are. Any of you guys done anything in this dept?
www.speedforceracing.com

 

[Diver944]

I haven't seen any cars in the UK with the Speedforce intake and exhaust but I have seen the Lyndsey versions as fitted to Mark K's monster 400bhp car. The intake is a very impressive looking piece of kit and it not only gives great results in Marks car but it really does bling up the engine bay [8D]

With the current exchange rate it seems a damned good price too.

 

[Fen]

Mark K's car has pretty poor torque considering everything else and it seems likely that the intake is to blame for that. It isn't that it makes more power than can be achieved with a standard manifold either, so on balance I looked at that car and thought the Lindsey intake is a bad piece of kit.

 

[333pg333]

Not sure that you could blame the apparent torque loss due to the Lindsey intake, however I get the impression that these are more suited to a higher rpm engines so you buy their heads, cams, intake etc...There could be a number of reasons for the tq curve. What else does this monster engine have? Paul, what are the spec's for your engine rebuild (not withstanding any 'trade' secrets of Jon's) in regards to the abovementioned + engine management, exhaust etc...
I'm looking to do something like this in the next 12 months. Hoping Jon will come back to me with some ideas, spec's, and costs.

 

[944Turbo]

Promax level 4 IIRC, Big turbo, MAP, stage 3 head, big exhaust, boost controller, 21PSI, lindsey hard pipes, intercooler, less power or torque (or both?) than a standard car at 3,000 rpm, can be seen here http://www.promaxmotorsport.com/ , the owner of the car is really nice guy and IMHO deserved bigger numbers for the money invested, but he broke 400 and was top car on the last dyno day as Rick elected not to run so I guess he is happy,
http://www.cannell.co.uk/UKL%20C7KOE.htm
The car is a very nice example.

Tony

 

[333pg333]

Some intersting no's posted on the Cannell site. Show's just how different the rest of the world's dynos are to the U.S.! Still it seems to me that there must be something wrong with Mark's beast to be 'only' putting down those numbers with all that kit?

 

[Fen]

I think you answered your own question: the intake and possibly head (and I do think we can attribute it to these items as especially on a turbo car the intake plays a big part in the torque delivery) are all about making figures at the top end. Quite why it shows a drop in numbers before the redline I'm not sure however as it should be set up to keep pulling if it's optimised for high revs.

As I said in my last post I look at that car and (like Tony I guess) I see disappointment. It would stop me from buying some of the kit fitted as I don't think it performs.

 

[AndrewS]

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

Promax level 4 IIRC, Big turbo, MAP, stage 3 head, big exhaust, boost controller, 21PSI, lindsey hard pipes, intercooler, less power or torque (or both?) than a standard car at 3,000 rpm, can be seen here http://www.promaxmotorsport.com/ , the owner of the car is really nice guy and IMHO deserved bigger numbers for the money invested, but he broke 400 and was top car on the last dyno day as Rick elected not to run so I guess he is happy,
http://www.cannell.co.uk/UKL%20C7KOE.htm
The car is a very nice example.

Tony

Hi Tony,

Mark's Level 4 car made 391.2 lbft and 440.9bhp at the Milnrow Bosch dyno (on May 18th 2006 - 2 days prior to WRC). The figure at WRC was achieved with a temporary induction solution, hence we lost at least 15bhp as a result. We plan to run it again next time we see the car to record power with the correct induction solution that it now has. As a point of comparison, the recent Level 3 car we tested at Milnrow made 369bhp and then 355bhp at WRC. The WRC figure was 90.9% of the Milnrow figure (Level 4) and 96.2% of the Milnrow figure (Level 3). The variance caused by the temporary induction solution used on May 20th.

The cost of the Level 4 kit is fully inclusive. It includes all the parts and labour and is guaranteed to acheive 400+ bhp at WRC. I don't think you can purchase that anywhere else (with a guarantee and a fixed cost). £7995 is a drive in - drive out price. How much time and money have you spent on your car to get the 340bhp that you have? Equate your labour to £41.95/hr + VAT to make a fair comparison. Mark K's car is the fastest car I have ever driven - it is quicker than my old 2.8 and just keeps on pulling. You have to drive it to appreciate it (rather than just look at figures). How much has Rick spent on his - a lot more than £8k I would guess?

Also, we consistently see cars with similar kit to USA cars making far less power here in the UK on UK dyno's. Compare the similar Lindsey racing 340 rwhp kit to the ProMAX Level 3 Kit (WRC verified 355bhp = approx. 300 rwhp). There appears to be a discrepancy between Dyno's here in the UK and USA (units of measurement?, methods used? - not sure) as there is between WRC and other dyno's (such as Thor, Parr etc.)

Regards,
Andrew

 

[333pg333]

Andrew that's pretty much $20k Aussie. This is a lot of cash. What are the components for your drive through 400hp kit? I would hope for that kind of $$$ at least 400hp which is not much more than 300rwhp. What fuel are you running for these pulls at 21psi. How reliable will the car be if you have only done the induction system? I agree that we have to take into account costs for labour.When I am spending that sort of money I will expect more power and that's going into the bottom end, increasing capacity to 3.0ltr amongst other things.
Fen I just find it strange that the Lindsey induction and head has such a flaw in it's delivery that's why I am not so sure it is entirely to blame. I don't think that everything they sell is the best you can get,(I don't agree with running the turbo 'dry') but they do seem to do a fair bit of their own research and the quality is generally very high. I'm just curious as to why it would behave that way?

 

[Fen]

I think the point is that the area under the curve is smaller than people expect to see. I bet the car feels really fast to the seat of the pants because it has relatively little low down and then what it has must come in in quite a rush. That isn't the same as being truly fast and emphasises the shortcomings of the seat of the pants dyno. It was for this reason owners of the 3.0 930 felt the 3.3 was a slower car even though performance measurements showed it was not.

Regardless of the reasons on the day the car posted the plot Rick hosts on the dyno that everyone else has run their cars on and that we believe to be repeatable from one run to the next. Comparing results between dynos is like comparing a weight of apples with a weight of bananas and claiming to have the same number of each fruit. Additionally many dynos have no atmospheric control systems meaning that their figures from the same car can vary quite dramatically between 2 days with different ambient temperature, barometric pressure and humidity. It would be interesting to see the output of Mark's (or a similar) car running to full potential on the WRC dyno. I say that in the spirit of knowing the potential only. From my viewpoint the current fugures posted by that particular car do not sell the kit (and I suspect I am not alone), but if it has potential to post more impressive results then opinions could be changed.

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: 333pg333

Paul, what are the spec's for your engine rebuild (not withstanding any 'trade' secrets of Jon's) in regards to the abovementioned + engine management, exhaust etc...

Mine has gone the route of simplicity but more capacity. It remains to be seen how different this will be compared to the 2.5 cars that have the more exotic induction, engine management, boost control etc.

It's a 3.2l engine, 2.7l large valved head, ball race hybrid turbo, ported standard intake manifold, larger intercooler, straight through front exhaust, TiAL 46mm wastegate, standard AFM (for now). The engine has been specced and built to physically withstand running at 2bar of boost, though I probably won't ever go above 1.4bar as longevity is highly prized by my wallet at the moment. I like the fact that there are many different ways to achieve useful power increases for our cars and not one of us has gone down the same route as another. A few years ago the only option was to go and have a remap and a shimmed wastegate from AMD

Andrew, please be careful not to turn this post in to a marketing exercise. I appreciate you are answering questions raised by Patrick so I'm not going to do any moderating at the moment and leave everyones post as it stands, which is the way I prefer to play it []. We all know there are strict rules on the forum and I don't want a good thread to degenerate into mass censorship as it just makes us 944 bunch look like a load of uncontrollable yobbos []

 

[AndrewS]

ORIGINAL: 333pg333

Andrew that's pretty much $20k Aussie. This is a lot of cash. What are the components for your drive through 400hp kit? I would hope for that kind of $$$ at least 400hp which is not much more than 300rwhp. What fuel are you running for these pulls at 21psi. How reliable will the car be if you have only done the induction system? I agree that we have to take into account costs for labour.When I am spending that sort of money I will expect more power and that's going into the bottom end, increasing capacity to 3.0ltr amongst other things.
Fen I just find it strange that the Lindsey induction and head has such a flaw in it's delivery that's why I am not so sure it is entirely to blame. I don't think that everything they sell is the best you can get,(I don't agree with running the turbo 'dry') but they do seem to do a fair bit of their own research and the quality is generally very high. I'm just curious as to why it would behave that way?

Hi,

This is part of the problem (expectation based on what you see claimed eslewhere). I myself have fallen foul becuase of believing the claims by others (which is why we now test all our solutions at WRC, we also had a little encouragement from members on this forum ;-)). A great example (I had experience of) was the 363 rwhp kit from a USA based tuner. When I fitted this to my car (in 2003), even with extensive dyno tuning - no more than 285 rwhp could be achieved - and that was on a 2.8! Experience soon tells you that you will not make big power with a standard AFM and exhaust system!

If Mark K's car was dyno tested on a Mustang in New Jersey, it might be 500+ rwhp. Unfortunately I can not tell you with any certainty, but I am suspecting that many of the USA figures we are so used to seeing are much 'higher' than here (and those same cars could yield much lower figures at WRC).

Also 401.9 bhp was recorded on one particular car that was measured at 135psi compression. Other cars will respond differently (most are 145psi +). It is only reasonable we guarantee something if we feel it is repeatable on the majority of cars. Figures were achieved with BP Ultimate 97 RON fuel. 400 bhp (at WRC) is the guaranteed minimum.

In terms of tuning, 400bhp is a lot more than 300bhp on these cars. For many the threshold is about 360bhp - getting beyond that is not straight forward. You can not just simply increase boost (with the corresponding ignition retard and fuel delivery changes) and hope to yield more power. As I mentioned earlier, 400 bhp is the minumum power guaranteed with the kit. I can asure you it is not easy to achieve without a lot of research and thought (if the engine is to remain reliable).

Fitting all of this kit is quite labour intensive too and includes custom parts that were required to break into the 400bhp domain. With solid lifters and a different cam profile, more power should be possible through increased RPM. I'm confident the torque would increase with higher compression and a more modern higher output ignition system (and appropriate re-mapping of the software to support).

I'm looking forward to the next dyno day! ;-)

Regards,
Andrew

PS. Hi Paul, doing my best to answer the questions without making it promotional - please advise if you feel I am stepping out of line.

 

[sawood12]

Anyone know the spec of the 968 turbo RS cars? I know they were 3 ltr engines but were kicking out anywhere between 500 - 700bhp depending upon what you read about them. Apparently they were also tuned specifically for low end torque rather than out and out headline BHP. I wonder what sort of intake system these cars used? I would have thought that something like the intake system shown in the attached photo from Kokeln is the next progression from the OEM set up.

 

[Diver944]

The four factory built RS cars had between 330bhp - 350bhp depending on which race series they were intended for. They used an 8v head similar to the 944T but on top of the three litre bock. They were restricted to these power outputs purely because of the classification rules and as the years went past they have mostly been tweaked to much higher figures.

Edited to add this website: http://www.968turbo.homestead.com/

 

[MarkK]

Hullo!
Just figured out how to post on this forum!Just thought i would chip in,Dyno data is fun,i really enjoyed the day i would be fibbing if i said otherwise,but more importantly the car works well and is really good fun to drive down a sweepy country road and has nice roadmanners in town,it is WAY quicker than before- i am going to uprate the Pads at the front[].Does what we set out to do,(i am sure the inlet and the free- flowing 4inch exhaust must have contributed to this).
MarkK

 

[944Turbo]

Hi mark glad you made it here, welcome! []
Tony

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: AndrewS

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

How much time and money have you spent on your car to get the 340bhp that you have? Equate your labour to £41.95/hr + VAT to make a fair comparison.

#

That 340 BHP was with a MAJOR boost leak through the ISV, note my graph is way rich as the MAF was measuring air coming in that was then escaping, it is also at lowly! 18psi, my current chips maf will allow more.

The actual performance parts on my car now run to approx. £2,000 off the top of my head, say £2,500 in case i forgot something.

Addmitedly I have used various development options, but to recreate it that is roughly what I would spend and once I have a bit more time will be returning to the dyno and hope to exceed 350 at 18 psi at 21psi I would expect around 370bhp, dont know what my compression is like but the car has done over 180,000 hard miles well the 90k I ave done in it have been fairly hard.

I have an IC and hard pipes to install as well, if I had met Simon sooner probably would be running a more efficient turbo increasing the area under my graph and getting higher numbers at the top.

Davids car I also modded, though Jon M had some input - thanks [] , It has a standard exhaust, AFM and turbo and made around 370 ftlbs and 320BHP at iirc17.5 PSI, mods amounted to under a £1000.

Labour excluded but I could probably recreate Davids car in around 16 hours working to the high standards I employ at work in the aviation field, at slightly more than £41 per hour

I am an amateur and have found a package that works in my spare time. If I had more time I believe I could do much better.

I dont know what Rick has spent - its up to him and he enjoys the development side, I do know that running at 21PSI he has a lot of monitoring going on to ensure the engine stays in one piece, EGT's, AFR's boost, knock, etc. (sometimes with back up systems).

Not sure how much Paul has spent but he should achieve similar figures with the ability for much higher and has a better and stronger than new engine - he has had t wait a bit longer though []

Tony

 

[944Turbo]

ps that was only engine performance mods i also have brakes, suspension, etc etc. to add to the total
Tony

 

[AndrewS]

Hi Tony,

My point entirely. As a further comparison - the Level 3 kit achieves 355bhp at WRC for £2400 (excluding labour) and can be fitted over a weekend - getting on the road to 400+bhp requires much more than a proportional increase in cost.

I agree that getting 320bhp is easy. The point is (that beyond this) for each increase in bhp you will incur a likely exponential increase in cost. That suggests 500bhp will be £25K+ :-( Ouch!

If your car can make 370bhp (at WRC) going from 18psi to 21psi. I'll give you a free service credit! ;-)

Regards,
Andrew

 

[944Turbo]

My performance is amateur tinkering on a well worn car in my free time, shouldn't a profesional outfit be able to do better than me?

only 7BHP per PSI, I'll take my credit in cash

Tony