Is it just me?

[DivineE]

It's snowing here in Northampton again pretty heavily at the minute and predictably its mayhem but with its light weight, engine over the rear wheels and 70/30 distribution I cant help justifying to myself why I need a 4 wheel drive 911 every time it snows.

I've never got stuck yet but even I have to admit driving a RWD in this weather isn't the most practical way of getting around! I wouldn't like to bet on making a long journey in a 944 when its snowing its just so much harder to drive. My old A4 Quattro made it feel so easy I could barely tell the difference.

Has anyone else noticed the ridiculously cheep price of the 996 now? It's actually cheaper than most 964's. Suddenly the car looks a lot more attractive.

 

[DivineE]

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201002350227769/sort/priceasc/usedcars/price-from/10000/model/911/make/porsche/page/1/keywords/c4/radius/1500/postcode/nn68hr?previous=%2Fsearch%2Fused%2Fcars%2Fporsche%2F911%2Fpostcode%2Fnn68hr%2Fradius%2F1500%2Fkeywords%2Fc4%2Fprice-from%2F10000%2Fpage%2F1%2Fsort%2Fpriceasc&logcode=p

 

[Neil Haughey]

I used to have some traction problems in the S2 but in the 968 tiptronic it has never been an issue. I attribute this to the extra weight of the auto box on the rear wheels and the torque smoothing effect of the torque converter. In fact it has really surprised me just how good an allround car the 968 tip is, Stephanie loves it and you just never worry about loosing the back end etc. you don't get a sore leg in traffic and its always utterly smooth. Man I miss it and want it back from the garage asap.

 

[appletonn]

ORIGINAL: DivineE

It's snowing here in Northampton again pretty heavily at the minute and predictably its mayhem but with its light weight, engine over the rear wheels and 70/30 distribution I cant help justifying to myself why I need a 4 wheel drive 911 every time it snows.

I've never got stuck yet but even I have to admit driving a RWD in this weather isn't the most practical way of getting around! I wouldn't like to bet on making a long journey in a 944 when its snowing its just so much harder to drive. My old A4 Quattro made it feel so easy I could barely tell the difference.

Has anyone else noticed the ridiculously cheep price of the 996 now? It's actually cheaper than most 964's. Suddenly the car looks a lot more attractive.

Hell of a lot of car for the money, as long as you can live with the looks and the potentially ruinous plasticine engine issues!

 

[pauljmcnulty]

as anyone else noticed the ridiculously cheep price of the 996 now? It's actually cheaper than most 964's. Suddenly the car looks a lot more attractive.

I agree, but it's just down to simple supply and demand. The 996 was sold in relatively large numbers, at a time when credit was easy to get. Now, the market is flooded with cars for which there are limited buyers. Add in the large proportion that are fairly poorly specced and it lowers the values even more.

Great time to buy, then. Just remember,though, that these are not cheap cars to run even if they are cheap to buy. Keep at least the prive of a good 944 turbo back for potential repairs, or take out a maintenance plan with someone like Hartech. That, for me, rules it out. [&o]

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: DivineE
I wouldn't like to bet on making a long journey in a 944 when its snowing its just so much harder to drive. My old A4 Quattro made it feel so easy I could barely tell the difference.

You're not really comparing apples with apples there; the Audi Quatt system was originally designed to allow traction on very loose and slippery surfaces, in order to win rallies. I think that by the time it got to the A4 then the system was completely different in engineering terms, but the heritage stands none the less. Distributing the job of driving to all four wheels can only lead to much better traction when grip is in short supply, and hence the A4 will do much better in snow. The 944 was designed to a very different brief and excels elsewhere.

Having said that, I have done a fair few miles in the snow in my 944 and it is not as bad as some make it out to be. Usual low-traction-conditions rules apply: be very gentle with all inputs, drive in a higher gear than you perhaps normally would and plan ahead much more than usual. Tyres with a decent amount of tread on them help (and winter tyres will help a lot more) but I have yet to have difficulties. Simon (944man on here) has talked about putting extra weight in the boot when it snows which sounds like an interesting idea.


Oli.

 

[tref]

I have to agree the 944 isn't ideal in the snow, that said, it is a lot of fun. I was on the M3 when the snow was really bad around Basingstoke... it was hairy enough that I was going to turn back - which is a problem on the motorway, then looked across, and it was jammed solid, so didn't really have much choice but plough on.

It was a constant battle to keep it straight, and on one ocassion I spun, 270degrees. I didn't see any-one else doing that, so crappy skills on my part, or blame it on the 944. There was only one lane passable, so everything was at the same speed, I wasn't going faster than anything else (and didn't feel I was too fast for the conditions either).

 

[chrisg]

I once had the joy of driving home in a blizzard (2001 when people were trapped overnight on the M11) in an M5 - large fat low profile tyres, with 340bhp all going through the rear wheels !

However, the LSD and sensible driving got me home ok. I've yet to venture out in the snow in the 951 but reckon it would be just as straightforward with 50:50 weight distribution and an LSD will help. As Oli says, most of its down to sensible driving and giving yourself plenty of stopping space to the car in front !

BTW, I drove home from Northampton yesterday in the wife's scooby, it got steadily worse along the A45, but the 4wd gave me plenty of confidence. Bizarely though, once I got close to Kimbolton ALL the snow disappeared and it was just wet on the road.....

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: sc0tty
To me, the 996 non turbo models are not really 'true' porsches ! they just dont seem to have the same build quality or engine reliability of porsches of old, and they dont even look good !

Give me a 911, 964 993 any day !

See - the fellow does speak sense! I take back all those horrid things I ever said about him! []

I utterly agree with you Sc0tty. In fact, I bought my S2 within two days of my (then) boss's boss getting a 996 C2 cab, and we compared cars on a company away day the following week. He was a total t0sser (of the very first order) and I was much gratified that he was struggling to find good points about his 996 to crow about when stood alongside my S2! (I think the only one he definitively scored was "driving with the roof down is such great fun". I had to concede that one as his 996 was a cab and my S2 sported the 'mere' targa top roof. The fact that he had been fleeced by a dealer and paid around six times as much as I had was simply joyous ... )


Oli.

 

[John Sims]

Funny things cars and snow.

Had a 4wd Jag X Type. That was great in the dry but, because it didn't have traction control, would send any available power to the wheel of least resistance in the snow. 4x4 Panamera has traction control and will kangaroo away from a snowy junction, if you apply any power, like a very strange thing.

If you look at the classic Monte Carlo rallys, they were won by all manner of cars and not necessarily those you would think should be good in the snow, so car choice doesn't necessarily make it good or bad. That said, my Freelander which has a special setting for snow is astonishingly good but Land Rover also recommend turning off the adaptive damping so the suspension is soft in extreme conditions - from this we can assume that soft suspension is better than hard in snow - which would make sense.

Talking to Gordon at Silverstone Porsche Experience Centre, they put snow tyres on a 911 and he said they transformed it in the snow, so tyres obviously make a difference. You can be sure, what ever car you have, great big wide tyres aren't going to be as good as nice narrow tyres when it is snowy..

 

[Sandspider]

I didn't use my 944 too much in the snow, but when I did, it was as good as any other 2wd car I've driven in snow (all front wheel drive incidentally) I would say... When moving, it was fine. I only got it stuck once, and that was trying to park on a hill when there happened to be a big patch of ice under one of the rear wheels. I ended up resting gently against the car that was in the next parking space down, with my tail still out in the road. Luckily the owner came out to go to work and moved his car (didn't seem to notice or mind that my car was getting all friendly with his!) and I just rolled down into the next space. Perfect! And it was good getting out of a snowy pub carpark too... (Actually, I did have trouble getting up my drive - but that slopes up at about 40 degrees).

 

[sawood12]

Well just as I stuck up for the Boxster in the thread the other day i'll stick up for the 996. You may not like their looks - fair enough. But to say they are not a proper Porsche is nonsense - why are they not a proper Porsche? Is it because they are watercooled? So are 944's. They are not expensive to run - they cost Audi TT money to service and are as reliable as any other Porsche model. Come on 944 guys. How many times have I heard 924/944/968 owners whinge on about how other other Porsche owners don't consider these cars to be 'proper Porsches' and we have stuck up for the cars to no end. If you don't like the car then fair enough, but credit where credit is due and stop peddling untruths. The 996 moved the 911 on in terms of performance and modernising the car. I know guys who have had both and though the 993 was the more soulful car the 996 was much more comfortable, much better for everyday use, cheaper to run, more reliable. Whichever way you cut it, they are a hell of alot of car for the money. What else are you going to get that will give you the same blend of performance, practicality and prestige? That is what a proper Porsche is to me!!

I'lm going start up the 996 and Boxster appreciation society. Number of members - 1!

 

[Frenchy]

Scott 2............... lovely cars for not silly money !
Regular on PH looking at them, mate bought a 996 Turbo Mint low miles for the same price as fORD fOCUS RS, not knocking the Ford put parked beside one another which would you drive away................Clue, begins with P !

 

[pauljmcnulty]

We always say a 944 is a cheap car to buy, but you should be aware that it could cost Porsche money to run. You can, of course, buy a stunning Boxster or 996 for Huyndai money. Whether you can run them on the sort of budget I can afford, probably not. Let's wait for the first post from someone who's bought a 996 for £15K, and is surprised to need Hartech's services when something big goes bang.

Not a criticism of the car, just that they aren't a £15K car and the bills won't be either.

 

[Mike_Pollock]

Focus RS £26k and a 996 Turbo £25K (Pistonheads)
Suprised me too!
Mike

 

[Neil Haughey]

According to Hartech the running costs of the 996 are not much different to a 944, the 2 problems I have with the 996 are as follows:
1) Many years ago now I sat in a 2 year old 996 (would have been around 2001 ISTR) and to me the interior was a massive massive disappointment. It was that horrible beige colour for a start didn't help but to me in both look and feel the thought "80's Nissan" stuck and has put me off ever since, should add that on a 2 year old car it was already showing unacceptable levels of wear, just like a very cheap throw away car. Now the effect is the same only worse.
2) E46 M3 is arguably a better car in many areas (interior for a start), probably better built, more useful, maybe cheaper to run, but crucially much cheaper to buy. The E46 is now only slightly more then the best 44's and getting down to similar prices to the 968. Helps as well that I love the BMW straight 6 motor.

I agree with Scott though, someone who drives a car made in an Audi factory using a mixture of VAG derived parts and a dullard engine calling the 996 not a real Porsche is somewhat laughable.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

According to Hartech the running costs of the 996 are not much different to a 944,

What bill on a 944 would equate to IMS failure on a 996? [8|]

I appreciate this might not happen during my ownership, but then again it might. I can't afford a rebiult engine on a 996, but can plan ahead and budget for the major bills on a 944. Adding in the £10K-plus loan to buy a 996, and that being a poverty-spec one in boring silver with miles, poor history etc., and I just can't even think that I'd enjoy it.

 

[DivineE]

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey

According to Hartech the running costs of the 996 are not much different to a 944, the 2 problems I have with the 996 are as follows:
1) Many years ago now I sat in a 2 year old 996 (would have been around 2001 ISTR) and to me the interior was a massive massive disappointment. It was that horrible beige colour for a start didn't help but to me in both look and feel the thought "80's Nissan" stuck and has put me off ever since, should add that on a 2 year old car it was already showing unacceptable levels of wear, just like a very cheap throw away car. Now the effect is the same only worse.
2) E46 M3 is arguably a better car in many areas (interior for a start), probably better built, more useful, maybe cheaper to run, but crucially much cheaper to buy. The E46 is now only slightly more then the best 44's and getting down to similar prices to the 968. Helps as well that I love the BMW straight 6 motor.

Funnily enough these are my two old reasons for not liking the 996. When the car was new two people I know traded in their 993's for them and I like any was keen to get out in them and see the new Porsche. Compared to the 993 the 996 felt like a real disappointment. It looked dull, sounded dull, was detached to drive and the interior felt cheap. One of the two traded it for an E46 M3 having had nothing but Porsche cars for 11 years and the other bought a 4x4.

...Now though things have changed slightly and I am able to see it from a new perspective. Cars are now so much further detached from the driving experience that the 996 with its rare 6 speed manual option feels superbly engaged. The new 997 model looks so cheap inside that the 996 feels like a 993 all of a sudden and the 993 is finally starting to go 'over the hill' it looks too dated to be considered 'the 911 of the day' (think from the eyes of a woman, its a classic now not a flash sports car), too much like a classic to drive every day and with much higher mileage cars going for 2 or 3 times the money it is logically impossible to justify the car over the 996 when the two are sat side by side.

Like I say its getting more attractive and having sat in one again recently it made me realise just how nice the interior was with it's lovely trip computer built into the rev counter. I could image myself drivng it every day.

However with all the above considered I'd still prefer to look at the arches, listen to the sound, feel the raw experience and buy the 993. It's the better car to polish and to drive.. just maybe not to justify.

 

[Copperman05]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

According to Hartech the running costs of the 996 are not much different to a 944,

What bill on a 944 would equate to IMS failure on a 996? [8|]

I appreciate this might not happen during my ownership, but then again it might. I can't afford a rebiult engine on a 996, but can plan ahead and budget for the major bills on a 944. Adding in the £10K-plus loan to buy a 996, and that being a poverty-spec one in boring silver with miles, poor history etc., and I just can't even think that I'd enjoy it.

I cant afford a re-build on my 944, thats why many get broke when it happens, but it doesnt stop me from owning one, there is no g'tee the engine wont blow up whatever car you drive. All Porsches are more expensive to run, the 996 is no exception, perhaps more to run than the 944 but then it would be.

If its not for you then its not for you, doesnt mean the car isnt worth looking at, especailly at the prices it is nowadays.

Edd

 

[Suffolk944]

ORIGINAL: DivineE


The new 997 model looks so cheap inside that the 996 feels like a 993 all of a sudden and the 993 is finally starting to go 'over the hill' it looks too dated to be considered 'the 911 of the day' (think from the eyes of a woman, its a classic now not a flash sports car),too much like a classic to drive every day and with much higher mileage cars going for 2 or 3 times the money it is logically impossible to justify the car over the 996 when the two are sat side by side.....


However with all the above considered I'd still prefer to look at the arches, listen to the sound, feel the raw experience and buy the 993. It's the better car to polish and to drive.. just maybe not to justify.

I guess thats the nub of the situation with all cars classic or otherwise, the market price doesn't always reflect the merits of the car itself. "Intangible" qualities and fashion can have a major impact. I mean there's no logical reason why today there is such a gap in the market value of a 944 Turbo and a 3.2 Carrera as when new they were priced almost identically. In fact logically you could argue that it should be the 944 which should have better second hand residuals..

If I did have £15-£20k to blow on a second car I dont think a 996 would be at the top of my list, but it would be on the list and I would make sure I drove one to find out whether it was for me or not.