KKK K26 Turbo Unit 220BHP

[J.C944TurboMan]

I am in the process of restoring my 944 Turbo 220BHP Model , so sent the Turbo to AET in Wakefield to have it refurbed at a cost of £300 plus the dreaded V.A.T , the person I first dealt with went on holiday so received a call from the marketing person to say that it is the worst case scenario and the air compressor wheel needed replacing due to damage and would be a further £100 , I disputed this and asked for the technical person Matt to call me just to clarify this as I have seen poor Compressor wheels and the one on my Turbo seemed fine to the naked eye . I waited all day and no reply , the following day tech. advisor Matt called and to be honest did not sound too convincing and I asked if the Unit could be returned as I felt they were in laymans terms ripping me off , I asked if he could reassemble the unit I would be willing to pay for the service , and explained that the Turbo was not smoking and was boosting fine this was just preventative servicing due to having no service history with my 944 T , I agreed and asked him if I could collect , so he told me to collect late afternoon to allow them time to reassemble the Turbo unit . Half hour later received a call from AET MD Andy Taylor , he said he was not happy with me accusing then of being a rip off and I would get my Turbo back in bits ! I explained to Andy Taylor that in the US you can get upgrade Sport Turbos for around $1100 dollars and the K26 including the core charge $650 and if you return a core you get $200 back , so he was of the mark on his pricing and that I felt there was nothing visibly wrong with the Compressor wheel , he then said along the lines well you know it all yet you are full of SH.T and I'll be waiting for you when you come to collect your Turbo ! Very nice chap ! Well now I have the K26 in bits does anyone have a good explored view of this Turbo so I can put it back togther thanks. And can the Bigger 911 K26 dry Turbo be a good upgrade for the 944 T ? Thanks and apologies for been a bit long winded . J

 

[Hilux]

With respect you cannot accurately check easily play and wear with it assembled.

They say it needs replacing, you say you disagree without seeing it. Stalemate. Ironically your post suggests you were quoted the worst case scenario so it wasnt unexpected!

Note that by sending it to them on the basis of an agreed price both parties are in a legally binding contract so they could charge you for work done ie dissassembly and reassembly.

Are you now simply reassembling it without refurbishing it?

 

[J.C944TurboMan]

Alright Paul thank you for your input , this is what is needed open discussion .Sorry I think you has miss understood or I have not made it clear , When I was first in contact with AET , I dealt with Matt and he was very help full though he did misquote me on a Turbo Smart Wastegate and did not advise of an additional £65 for an adapter flange needed on top of the cost of £200 for the wastegate . Matt quoted me for the turbo unit to be reconditioned with new Oil sills and solid bearings £300 + VAT and then Matt went on holiday and the following week Stuart Jarratt Marketing person called me and was very pleasant but he him self said I do not really know about Turbot's , he was just advising me what was on the job sheet and at this point they were advising worst case and it would be a further £100 on top of what they had already quoted me , so I am entitled to dispute this extra charge and asked to speak with Grant Tech. Advisor (Sorry on my original posting I got mistaken and said I spoke to Matt ) , and the rest is history , I lost trust with them and wanted my Turbo back but not in bits ! Anyway you can measure end play on exhaust Turbo Charger with out stripping the Turbo unit , Max Play on the Air Compressor wheel end 0.16mm using special tool VW 387 and Radial play Max play 0.42mm . You can also see the compressor wheel through the air inlet side and you can feel the play in the bearing . A person who is involved in building 100K plus race cars had a look and feel of the bearings and said that he had bought brand new Turbo units and they had more bearing play than my 944 Turbo unit . He then did advise AET to recondition the Turbo unit ,I just want to point out that some times people try it on and the classic , O well the Turbo is of a Porsche statement is quoted , what if Escort Turbo cars were using K26 units bet it would not cost £400 + Vat to recondition !! . O well could be have been worst and as told by local Porsche parts department advisor they had a GT3 brought to them with the engine in bits after a dispute from the owner of the GT3 and the garage that was doing the work !! Must say Paul Love your motor looks well mate , I am going for 350bhp if I can , best regards J

 

[sawood12]

OK, i'm not much up on turbo rebuilds but if any vendor i was using had a benny at me for asking for more information about the work they are carrying out then i'd say they are not worth dealing with. If they had good technical knowledge they should be able to explain the problem with your turbo. And if their response to your queries is to simply spit their dummy out and return your turbo in bits means they don't deserve your business. However there are two things you ask about:-

1. No the 911 dry turbo is not suitable for a 944. Not only is it completely incorrectly sized for the 944 you need water cooling for the 944 as in water cooled engines combustion temps are higher - hence the need for a water cooled engine and water cooled turbo. People do run dry turbo's on 944's (though have cooled oil) but they wont get as good reliability or longevity out of the turbo.

2. For 350 bhp you will need a larger turbo than you find in a KKK26/6 as fitted to the 220bhp turbo's. Even the slightly larger 26/8 in the 250 tubo's will struggle to hit 350bhp. I reckon high 280's maybe into 290's is the best you can expect with the stock turbo.

 

[J.C944TurboMan]

Thank you Scott for your kind comments and I think you have hit the nail on the head , Andy Taylor spat his dummy out ! And I thought I would share and expose him to other people so they do not receive this type of service. May I thank you for the info you have provided on the K26 Turbo Units , there is a very nice man called Steve selling a brand new K26 for a 911 on ebay for £440 plus post and he claims to also have the larger 50mm inlet K26 at £500 plus post , I was not sure which path to take to try and achieve the 350bhp goal . I have seen the Sport Turbo Lindsey Racing in the US have on offer and here is what they offer :




The Lindsey "Sport" turbo line is an affordable option for the budget and performance minded. It's built on Garret components and will out perform any K26 and K27 hands down.
It's available in both a water jacketed housing (WET) like the original K26 or oil/air cooled (DRY). You also have your choice of a #8cm2 or #10cm2 hot housing. The inlet size (OD) is 3" on these models. All models come with pinned 360 degree bearings for durability. Mounting and exhaust connections are a direct bolt-in replacement from your K26. An adapter is necessary to allow for use on your Stock intake "J" boot or the use of a MAF intake kit.
This Turbo supporting 375bhp and starting at $1099 sound like the likely option to sort the Turbo problem out , best regards J

 

[edh]

I'd also have a word with Jon Mitchell - http://www.jmgarage.com/ about your options

HP isn't the only consideration with these cars, particularly for road use. Waiting until 4k rpm for boost isn't a great idea - you want the boost to come in as low as possible. If you swap a bigger turbo for your 26/6 it may be disappointing in that respect. By & large it's the mid range torque that makes them feel fast on the road - but I want more HP so that it doesn't feel like I'm standing still on Hangar Straight as the GT3's pull away

 

[333pg333]

Well there's certainly plenty of choice between a k26/6 and a turbo suitable for an 18 wheeler that will give you way more hp and still have great response.

 

[edh]

Agreed....but maybe too much choice?

You're not going to go wrong by following Jon's advice though

 

[J.C944TurboMan]

I have uploaded a picture from Lindsey Racing of the Sports Turbo hopfully the uploads has worked ! As you can see from the pic it's a nice looking bit of kit with the bullit type intake less drag , still have my option open as to which approach to take . As you have said with the bigger Turbo's seem to give more Lag as well , and there for not to easy to drive the car every day so to speak . Thank you all for your imput it is gladly appreciated , best regards J

 

[Hilux]

you can measure end play on exhaust Turbo Charger with out stripping the Turbo unit , Max Play on the Air Compressor wheel end 0.16mm using special tool VW 387 and Radial play Max play 0.42mm . You can also see the compressor wheel through the air inlet side and you can feel the play in the bearing

Ahaaaa, you learn something every day.

Didnt mean to sound critical its how abbreviated posts come out sometimes I suppose. Its just that your first post suggested (to me anyway) they had quoted a worst case scenario and then you didnt appear to like it.

I was just surprised you were allowed to diss a supplier on this forum when it appeared they hadnt done anything wrong.

PS: Thanks for the kind comments, I hope all goes well for you.

 

[Diver944]

You have plenty of options regarding aftermarket turbochargers for our cars, but you need to decide if you want quick spooling, huge top end power, lots of midrange torque etc. There is always a bit of a tradeoff between all the different sizes and specifications and there is no 'one size fits all'.

As well as the Lindsey options already mentioned and JMGarage (which is who I used for the hybrid ball bearing turbo in my car) you also have good offerings from http://www.vitesseracing.com/ , www.speedforceracing.com and also www.promaxmotorsport.co.uk who provide all the Lindsey kit over here in the UK

Once installed, you seriously need to look at your fueling as the standard map and the antiquated AMD chipset will be way out for a bigger turbocharger and you run the risk of running dangerously lean and detonating your engine []

 

[sawood12]

Lindsay turbo's, from what I gather, will certainly do the job and there are plenty of people out there using them and who are pleased with them. However they are not pushing the limits of turbo technology. The contact that Ed put you onto builds his own turbos utilising the very latest technologies. The problem with turbo's is that they have a relatively narrow efficiency band i.e probably 3k - 3.5k rpm so you either size your turbo such that the efficiency band is low down in your rev range (good for street use - minimal lag), at the top end of the range (good for high HP numbers and track work as engine revs are generally kept high, but with lots of lag), or somewhere in the middle to get some compromise between the two.

A good example of this is my car. I've increased boost on my 220bhp turbo with the stock turbo and i'm currently getting 275bhp. The boost comes on strong low down in the rev range but there is a definate reduction in urgency as the revs rise as the turbo gets out of its efficiency range and can't flow enough air to maintain pressure.

However Jon Mitchell (though I think the turbo's are build by Simon) utilises the latest technology therefore giving you a wider efficency range. The Lindsay turbos are good out-of-the-box / off-the-shelf turbo, but Jon can get you built a turbo specifically for your needs. It's more costly, but you get what you pay for.

Another source for an off-the-shelf turbo is Vittesse Racing: http://www.vitesseracing.com/ who offeres something called a 'quick spool' turbo.

I think at the end of the day as Ed has said, don't be fooled by impressive HP numbers. A big turbo pushing alot of air will always give you good HP figures (look at Mitsubishi Evo's), but not necessarily in a usefull part of the rev range, meaning you have to thrash your car to utilise it. That's why talking to someone like Jon about what you want means you will get the right turbo first time which is cheaper than doing the job twice.

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: Diver944 made a big typo but it's all corrected now and I've hidden it so I don't look so stoopid [8|] - cheers Ed, was just testing you were reading properly - Paul

a better place to try would be http://www.promaxmotorsport.com/[][]

 

[J.C944TurboMan]

Hi Paul , in life if you have a good experience you share it with others and if you have a bad experience you also share with others , I am not as you put it Dissing anyone but sharing actual events , Again you struggle to grasp the concept ! they first quoted £300 and then it went to £400 and if I am not misstaken , The service kit for a K26 you would be looking at £50 ish , so they were making plennty of profit first time round , but thought I was good for it so tried it on ! Anyway Andy Taylor's words were , "You can bad mouth me on the internet or where ever because I don't give a Sh.t" and that is gospel . But to be honest I'm over it like the Murphys I'm not bitter and life is too short to allow these type of people to get to you . There was nothing wrong with the Turbo to begin with and was sent for preventative maintanance , I am still smiling best regards J

 

[J.C944TurboMan]

Thanks Paul for all your advise and pointers , That detonating your engine []
sounds scary and I will seriously look into the fueling ! Suppose once you start modifying the 944 Turbo you enter uncharted waters ! But the gains are great ! Best regards J

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: J.C944TurboMan
....... Suppose once you start modifying the 944 Turbo you enter uncharted waters !......

Not in the least. There is a massive amount of information out there regarding modified 944 Turbos. Certainly enough to know you need to spend some serious money to get 300 bhp reliably. You won't be quibbling over £100 if you start thinking about going there.

 

[J.C944TurboMan]

Hi John thanks for your advise and your right there is a lot of modifying items for the 944 Turbo that can be purchased on the market , I had a read about the 944 Turbo cabriolet on Jon Mitchell's site 417.05bhp from standard engine apart from the head gasket is fantastic and reliable too great . In all fairness if you knew me , you would say I am a little frivolous with money and would not normally dispute a charge if it was made clear to me the extra cost's , just lost confidence with AET , but that's me and I bet the other 100 customers they have ripped off didn't have a clue and were really happy with the service ! Only joking !
Since buying my 944 Turbo on a G plate LHD Californian import for £3300 Cash from Carrera Cars in Luton , I have started myself restoring the 944 T to it's forma glory , having no history with the car I don't know what service work has been done in the pass and to be honest it was in a very sorry state when I first seen the 944 T ,manifolds were cracked blowing massively , power steering shot leaking everywhere , good oil leak has persevered underneath body passed middle of the car , Cam box gasket , Cambelt and tensioners , Cambelt when removed was ready to snap balance shaft belt ,new water pump , new oil cooler , new driving lights and indicators , front bumper and front end panels painted due to lunar like stone chips , seat's ripped so 2 new seats , new rear lights , have upgraded wheels to BBS 18inch Classic , 10inch rear look great and on and on suppose some other owners can relate to this sort of major servicing , £350 bill from Porsche for nut's and bolts and gaskets and the list goes on and on , but despite all the 944 T faults it still drove back from Luton to Manchester up the M1 pushing a 2006 911 Carrera up to 130mph and boosting at 120mph , so I new it was worthy of some pampering . I have since up to now spent over 3 months nearly 4K and just need a nice Turbo to finish the rebuild had budgeted between £5-650 but might have to spend a little more to get over the 300bhp bench mark , I think I have now found the right Turbo for the job ! Not sure if the bonnet will close ! best regards J

 

[Diver944]

Who needs a complete bonnet anyway. Take a look at this 9ff twin turbo 944T:

http://www.titanic.co.uk/cgi-bin/galleryimage.py?intReqPict=4144&intReqGall=2

The engine was canted upright to fit in both turbos so they simply cut out the top of the bonnet [&:][&:][&:]

 

[J.C944TurboMan]

Alright Paul they do some strange Porsche's at 9ff and I'm not to sure of the new GT9 model that was recently featured on Top Gear , unless they were messing around all the other cars were half way down the track before the GT9 got off the start line , serious Turbo Lag or what ! Here are some details of the beast , love the part of the Gold plated 24 carat induction , why what is wrong with 9 carat not good enough !

Regardless, after a couple years of GT9 coverage, 9ff has finally revealed all of the sumptuous technical details, production and pricing of its 400 km/h projectile.
Starting with its powerplant, the 996 Turbo sourced motor has been bored out to 4.0-liters which includes reworked turbos, dry sump oil lubrication system, titanium connecting rods, forged pistons and a 24 carat hard gold plated induction plate. The result is 987 PS / 726 kW at 7,850 rpm. The maximum torque of 964 Nm is reached at 5,970 rpm. Transmission is race prepared sequential unit.

I am more than happy with my under dog 944 Turbo love it ! Best regards J

 

[333pg333]

Here's a good neutral post that might interest you. It's from the Pelican tech forums in the US and it started a year ago, but is still relevent. Point is you can easily have more power without sacrificing spoolup or drive-ability.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=346595