Manual or tip

Guest · Jul 22, 2005

OK, I understand this could cause major fights nad all out warfare between members, but I would like an honest appraisal... As the title sugests I am after information and owners views on which is best; Tiptronic or manual!..

I currently have an auto and am happy with the cruisability of the car, and with driving an auto, however my current car is an arm-chair on wheels...
I am also happy driving manuals, and am a fairly nifty peadler; can heal and toe, left foot brake, double de-clutch, etc. so am quite at home with 3-pedals

The only gripe I have about autos is Im not really sure whats going on in there; with a manual I atleast understand how it works, and can change a clutch... If a torque convertor went, I wouldnt have a clue where to start, so instant big money!!!

Now the tiptronic sounds like the ultimate but Im not sure if its just an ultimate comprimise?.. Are the tip's any good, are they reliable (I imagine myself driving with this horible feeling that something is about to go wrong all the time, which would ruin the experience for me) and what are the general ownership views on them.. Also whats the manual like?.. ..Its not like all manual boxes are magical!!!...

Sorry in advance if this thread ruins friendships, marriges, etc., but I have to know! [

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Thanks in advance for your help

Ben

PS... The cars I am considering are 1999/2000/2001 Model year 2.5 or 2.7 Boxsters incase that makes any difference

oliver · Jul 22, 2005

ORIGINAL: catboy

Now the tiptronic sounds like the ultimate .....

PS... The cars I am considering are 1999/2000/2001 Model year 2.5 or 2.7 Boxsters incase that makes any difference

2.7 manual no question.

Although Tiptronic has evolved over the years, it is still a torque converter system. I've owned several (964 man and 964 tip, 993 man and 993 tip and 996 tip and 996 man, plus three Boxsters). The manual , IMO, is streets ahead. Maybe the forthcoming DSG system will change the situation.

The early 2.5 Boxsters were great little cars, but rather under-powered and the tiptronic just made matters worse. The 2.7s were usefully improved in a number of areas and are perfectly suited to the manual box.

Richard_Hamilton · Jul 24, 2005

Whilst I appreciate what Oliver says, I think it really depends on how you use the car. If it is your every day drive, and you do a lot of cross-town driving in traffic, then tiptronic is a real bonus. If, on the other hand, the car is a 'weekend toy', or you live in the middle of nowhere, then a manual will be a better bet.

The 996 is my second tiptronic, and I love it. It is lazy when you want it to be, but you can have some fun when you get on the open road. It IS a compromise, but one I am happy to live with.

Just my 2p-worth.

karl from ripponden · Jul 24, 2005

I drive a Boxster S Tip, at first I was very negative........about the mere thought of one!! anyway after the test drive I was hooked. It gives the best of both worlds.Do not worry with thoughts of any time delay etc in tipmode, there isnt any.My advise is go and test drive manual/tip. It all depends on your style of driving. regards karl.[

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Guest · Jul 25, 2005

thought this might cause some controvesy!... It will be my only car, and I will be driving through town a bit in it. I live close to the city centre, but drive against the rush-hour traffic day-to-day, so either man or auto is fine for that.

Obviously I love the lazyness of my current auto, but miss manual control on spirited drives. The main thing Im concerned with is performance really. Im concious of the fact I cant stretch to a 3.2, and Im not sure how much additional numbing of performance the torque convertor is going to cause...

Thanks for the responses so far guys, and hopefully I will get a few more this week... I start looking in earnest on Saturday!!!

Ben

Laurence Gibbs · Jul 25, 2005

I have just driven 2025 miles accross europe in my 2.5 tip. I can't imagine the drive would have been better in the manual, in fact I think it would have been worse. We encountered numerous traffic jams and each time we did I could not help thinking what a chore a manual would have been. We also took in the Katchberg pass in Austria and the manual mode behaved perfectly, there would have been no difference tackling this in the manual. Actually my money would be on the tip driver as each change is perfect each time. We also managed comfortable Autobahn speeds of around 110-130 mph where speed limits allowed. If you don't intend to tour in your boxster and don't expect to hit the odd traffic jam (is this possible !) then the manual will be in it's element. The manual will be the quicker car by fractions of a second but it will be the manual car that you think is the compromised one the minute you hit a traffic jam! If you use the car as everyday transport the tip is a very good choice.

KPNut · Jul 25, 2005

If Porsches own stats are to be believed, you loose about 3/4 of a second in the 0 to 60 stakes, and about 10% extra fuel consumption. The 50 to 70 figures take an even bigger hit, presumably because of the losses from the torque converter. Whether you would actually notice this in real world driving (other than the extra fuel!) is another matter.

Peronally, I wouldn't touch a Tip Toe with a barge pole; I try to get that perfect gear change whilst doing all the other stuff as one glides along. I call it "quick smoothness", I can't remember ever getting it, but the pursuit of it is why I like driving in general and sports cars in particular. It's also something you can try all the time, even in urban driving. I'm crap at it, but I like to try.

At the end of the day, it's what makes your own smile broader and what makes you happy that matters. If a Tip Toe floats your boat, then thats what you should buy.

KP

Guest · Jul 25, 2005

im interested in the performance figures mentioned, as the ones Ive seen in the back of a couple of porsche magazines (and others) show 0.1s increase 0-60...
also thanks for the views on the tip... I think gearbox choice is very personal at the end of the day, but am very interested in different peoples views on the alternatives, particularly interms of reliability, etc.

I know what people are saying about making perfect changes with a manual; its a good challenge nad all part of driving smoothly and keenly, but its got to be nice to have a semi-auto that takes the guess work out of it for you?!...

thanks again guys; I will continue to check the posts here, and will let you know how I get on with test drives, etc. over the weekend

ben

KPNut · Jul 25, 2005

According to the Porsche web site, the current 2.7 model (987) has a 0 - 62 time of 6.2 seconds for a manual and 7.1 seconds for the Tip Toe. Obviously the earlier models will have different figures. But at the end of the day I don't suppose most of us have the opportunity or inclination to red line the engine, clog to floor very often in every day use. Whilst ultimate performance is a factor in buying a car, it's only one of several. How you feel about it overall is what matters.

And there's no real controvery, it's all down to personal choice and what you want from the drive. Karl and Laurence are obviously very happy with their cars, and I hope they continue with that pleasure for very many years. As has been rightly said in these pages many times, the best Porsche is yours, whatever its model or configuration. Enjoy![

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But if you buy what is, after all an auto box, don't get into too many pi$$ing contests with some of the latest (very) hot hatches, Z4's, S2000's and Z350's, or even a 180TT. It could be quite embarassing![&o]

KP

oliver · Jul 26, 2005

Porsche's times for the 0-100kph (62.5mph) were:

986 2.5 man - 6.9 secs
986 2.5 tip - 7.6 secs

However, I would disagree with the suggestion that the manual car is a chore to drive in town.

A 915 gearbox with a non-hydraulic clutch might be occasionally tedious, but the Boxster, even the 2.5, had a very light clutch, slick gear change and plenty of torque.

The 2.5 manual's achilles heel was the throttle, which required extra revs at very low speed, particularly when reversing/parking to avoid stalling. A new electronic throttle linkage was introduced in the 2.7/3.2 which cured this.

If you are test driving any Boxsters, do try the 2.7. But don't try the 3.2'S' - unless you're prepared to stretch your budget.

Laurence Gibbs · Jul 26, 2005

The skill is in how you drive the thing not what type of G/box it has or indeed what the notional 0-62 times are[

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I can't recall anyone saying the manual was a chore to drive in town. What I did say is that the tip is much easier in comparison, especially in heavy traffic. And by design saves an awful lot of leg and arm work. If you don't use your car everyday or it's just a toy for weekend blasts then the manual makes much more sense as you will be able to ring every last drop that you are capable of out of the box. Personally I have something else to get my gear changing kicks from so I scarificed ultimate acceleration/involvement for ease and usabilty in my everyday car.

jac in a box · Jul 27, 2005

Well, I'm a big fan of Tiptronic. I'm bound to, and in all honesty - say I love it!

I tried several manuals before I chose the Tiptronic, though Tiptronic wasn't the overiding factor I certainly do not regret my choice and at no stage have I wished I bought a manual,
In town it's a doddle, no faffing around with gear sticks and clutches.

Get out and about for some fun driving and select manual...it's brilliant. The changes are almost instantaneous. Both hands on the wheel and concentrate on steering a flick (or 2) of a finger and I can drop 2 gears as quickly as a manual shift.
Even in auto mode I think the changes are pretty quick...much better than BMW's SMG and much better than many other auto's.

For those that say it's "clunky" - not so IMO. Power sapping? - not significantly. Detrimental to fuel economy? - my consumption is around 29mpg on motorway drives; 24mpg "having fun"....not bad I think!

There will be those who like to quote 0-60 figures; I'll leave that to the hairy chested boys who like to see who can pee furthest, highest etc [

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Put a manual and tiptronic side by side for a 0-60 sprint and I wouldn't mind betting there would be little in it....unless of course the manual driver has a very good technique for standing starts and is not too worried about cooking his clutch!
Tiptronic - simply bury the throttle pedal and let the electronic wizardry take care of it all - and I won't get any funny smells from my car!

On a journey from A to B you'd be there just as quick as a manual - maybe sooner on a "twisty" trip!

Oh, and it appears the Tiptronic is less likely to suffer RMS failures (PCGB survey)

There was an article in a Porsche magazine comparing manual v Tiptronic - if you'd like a copy I'll happily photocopy and forward to you. Just PM your mailing details.

Right, I'll sit back and and let all the "hairy chests" pick my post apart....in a fit of pique no doubt [

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Unless of course, you subscribe to the notion that such devices are primarily intended for, well, those of a less masculine disposition?
In which case, as a girl, that's fine - I've made the right choice[

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Jackie x

Mark_Bennett · Jul 27, 2005

The factory test drivers recon that the average driver will be faster around the track in a tip- the changes are faster and you can't make mistakes.

Unless you race every day the tip is likely to be faster.

But that didn't stop me chosing the manual [8D]

oliver · Jul 27, 2005

ORIGINAL: Mark Bennett

The factory test drivers reccon that the average driver will be faster around the track in a tip- the changes are faster and you can't make mistakes.

Unless you race every day the tip is likely to be faster.

But that didn't stop me chosing the manual [8D]

Mark,

My recollection of that statement goes back to the 993 tip/manual when Porsche reckoned that 7/10 'average' drivers could accelerate faster in a 993 tip than a 993 manual, because the 'average' driver couldn't change gear as quickly as a tiptronic driver with the right foot held flat to the floor.

I'd be sceptical if that applied to the 2.5 Boxster though. Several years ago I drove a variety of Boxsters and 996s on a Porsche/Lovetts day at Castle Combe, and the 2.5 tip was noticably slower than the manual.

Guest · Jul 27, 2005

ORIGINAL: Mark Bennett
The factory test drivers recon that the average driver will be faster around the track in a tip- the changes are faster and you can't make mistakes.
Unless you race every day the tip is likely to be faster...

Mark's (& Oliver) just hit the nail on the head, the 0-60 say for a manual v tip is heavily dependant on the drivers gear changing skills/technique.

This often disregarded consideration has occurred to me often when I've fluffed the changes, forgotten which gear I'm in and then backed off for fear of inadvertently changing into too low a gear (sayonara engine!)

A long standing OPC Technician I was speaking to recently has a high regard for Tips having driven most, if not all the model range over the years in both formats.

jac in a box · Jul 27, 2005

ORIGINAL: Mark Bennett

The factory test drivers recon that the average driver will be faster around the track in a tip- the changes are faster and you can't make mistakes.

Unless you race every day the tip is likely to be faster.

Couldn't agree more. Perhaps I should've mentioned the speed of gear changes in my earlier post.

Stamp on the accelerator in an overtaking situation, together with a "minus" press or two, on the steering wheel button and the box has gone from 5th to 3rd almost instantly, used to take me by surprise until I got used to it.

Another point worthy of note with the Tiptronic; I think the car has some sensors for measuring cornering force, the box won't change up part the way through the corner and unsettle the car, unlike some other auto boxes fitted to performance cars.
Together with a handful of (non-accesable) programmes that adapt the changes to suit your current driving style, the tiptronic is not just any old slush box - it's a very clever and useful box of tricks.

It's a shame that more people don't take the time to fully explore its capabilities before writing the Tip' off as just another power and performance sapping auto box.

Jackie x

jac in a box · Jul 27, 2005

ORIGINAL: concept

Mark's (& Oliver) just hit the nail on the head, the 0-60 say for a manual v tip is heavily dependant on the drivers gear changing skills.

...and my earlier post didn't![

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Jackie x

daro911 · Jul 27, 2005

ORIGINAL: catboy

Obviously I love the lazyness of my current auto, but miss manual control on spirited drives. The main thing Im concerned with is performance really. Im concious of the fact I cant stretch to a 3.2, and Im not sure how much additional numbing of performance the torque convertor is going to cause...

Ben

[&o]Ben have you not answered your own questions! You love lazyness of auto, you miss manual control, = Tip Box in that case, and if your main concern is performance then don't waste your time looking at 2.5's when for very little extra you are in a 2.7 which Oliver has already commented on .... Can't quite figure why you don't just test drive both boxes and surely from that you will be able to decide whats for you and whats not [] Good luck

Guest · Jul 28, 2005

thanks for the replies guys; sorry if this has caused a family rift!

The reason for my post wasnt just to get peoples opinions on the different boxes, but also to see if there are any maintanance/service/failure issues with either, and what peoples views on the operation of each were. I have driven a couple of porsches before and theres very little doubt in my mind whether or not the manual would be a good 'box, but I wasnt sure about the tip. I have driven the BMW SMG in a friends old Z4 and found it so sloppy in auto (worse than my 10yr old merc) and the manual option was far too snatchy. The merc semi-autobox I have driven (the new 7G on the SLK) was in comparison a dream, although a little fussy for my liking with 7 cogs!

The reason I havent been out there test driving is two fold. Firstly I have been all over europe in the last couple of weeks (hence erratic posting) and so not able to organise any drives. The second is that neither of the OPC's near me (silverstone and nottingham) have any tips in stock in the older model. I dont really see the point (other than for cheap thrills) in going and testing a brand new 2.7 and I definitely dont want to go test driving private sales/small dealers cars under the premise that I am a serious buyer.. I am a serious buyer, however up until this week I have only been in a position to test-drive and tyre kick and not buy...

I have booked in at the nottingham OPC to test drive a 2.7 manual on saturday, so atleast I will get to test drive the car, but I will prob go look at a couple of 2.7 tips straight away and then make a decision and start searching in earnest from there.

Thanks again for the responses guys (and girl), I will let you know the verdict next week!

Ben