Mass Airflow Meter
- Thread starter 944 man
- Start date
sawood12
New member
I don't think you can use the word 'cheap' in relation to any standalone ECU install. From what i've read about standalones, including Megasquirt, is that standalones require a hell of alot of time and effort to set up. With the SciVision and Vitesse products you get out of the box plug and play products that work. They may not be as tunable as standalones but will get you to within say 90 - 95% of what you'll get from a well installed and setup standalone without the months and months of faffing around and fine tuning, not to mention the cost of dyno time.
If you're simply going for standalone to get a MAF solution then you are only using a fraction of a good standalones true potential and it will probably end up being as good as a Vitesse or Scivision install. Standalones don't really come into their own unless you start tapping into their other more advanced features.
One standalone i've fancied, if I were ever to go that route, is the Wolf 3D setup. These are about £1200 but are true plug & play standalones with all the full stand-alone functionality, and can hook up straight to the 944 turbo's existing harness.
Are you sure about the Wolf Scott? I know Rick did a lot with the guy who makes them to address it, but it didn't go straight in any better than my Autronic (which didn't at all). He'd be able to tell you PnP it is now possibly, but my guess is still not very. It's Turbo only anyway isn't it?
I'd expect a 5bhp gain at most, not counting the balance belt gain as you can have that regardless of the ECU and air metering. I suspect the head and other flow characteristics start to play a part pretty quickly if EMC get 190bhp by changing them and using the standard AFM - that doesn't suggest the AFM is horrifically restrictive to me anyway.
Not worth it IMO. If you do do it you'll spend a shedload of time and/or money getting it mapped; the auto-map function won't work very well and will only do fuel unless something has advanced significantly since I did my Autronic. If you do go MS then you should also ditch the dissy and run CDI with coils on the plugs (assuming it can drive modern ignition) - that made a truly phenomenal difference to my Turbo, mostly in off-boost behaviour.
I'd expect a 5bhp gain at most, not counting the balance belt gain as you can have that regardless of the ECU and air metering. I suspect the head and other flow characteristics start to play a part pretty quickly if EMC get 190bhp by changing them and using the standard AFM - that doesn't suggest the AFM is horrifically restrictive to me anyway.
Not worth it IMO. If you do do it you'll spend a shedload of time and/or money getting it mapped; the auto-map function won't work very well and will only do fuel unless something has advanced significantly since I did my Autronic. If you do go MS then you should also ditch the dissy and run CDI with coils on the plugs (assuming it can drive modern ignition) - that made a truly phenomenal difference to my Turbo, mostly in off-boost behaviour.
944 man
Active member
I think that you are missing the point Fen. The accepted wisdom that you can only achieve a 5hp gain with these engines has been repeated by many here: if I was proposing to retain the existing ML3.1 which is one of the obstacles to making more power, and air meter then that might be accurate. Im not though, Im going to replace the archaic ECU and the restrictive barn door air flow meter. The ports on an 8v engine are good, so thatll leave the inlet and the exhaust manifolds to be matched: I will buy some tools for my Dremel...
Someone said that the 944 engine was in a high state of tune: I would suggest that that was far from the case. The early engines were rated at 163bhp, which equates to just under 65bhp per litre. The Peugeot 205 1600cc GTI engine produced at the same time bettered this (in fact, my first car, a 1979 Lancia Beta HPE, bettered it too by 4bhp per litre, on a carburettor!)..... Knowing that the cylinder head isnt the obstruction, that really only leaves the fuel and ignition systems, doesnt it? Even if I dont fettle the standard manifolds then Im still heading for an worthwhile improvement. When it is going I will be able to tel you whether its the manifold itself or the whole inlet tract that was causing the restriction...
Someone said that the 944 engine was in a high state of tune: I would suggest that that was far from the case. The early engines were rated at 163bhp, which equates to just under 65bhp per litre. The Peugeot 205 1600cc GTI engine produced at the same time bettered this (in fact, my first car, a 1979 Lancia Beta HPE, bettered it too by 4bhp per litre, on a carburettor!)..... Knowing that the cylinder head isnt the obstruction, that really only leaves the fuel and ignition systems, doesnt it? Even if I dont fettle the standard manifolds then Im still heading for an worthwhile improvement. When it is going I will be able to tel you whether its the manifold itself or the whole inlet tract that was causing the restriction...
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JamesO
New member
The hard part of replacing the ecu is the crank sensor, the 130-1 or so teeth is too many to work with megasquirt also you need an extra input for the reference sensor.
You would need to fit a 36-1 trigger wheel to the front of the crank pulley.
http://www.microsquirt.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=22985 this may or may not be of interest.
Oh and this.. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=365785
You would need to fit a 36-1 trigger wheel to the front of the crank pulley.
http://www.microsquirt.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=22985 this may or may not be of interest.
Oh and this.. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=365785
944 man
Active member
Anything pertinent is of interest, thank you. Im surprised that the original crank sensor cant be used, as this isnt a requirement for BMWs, which are running essentially identical Motronic management..... If I do this then I intend to make the MS system plug compatible with the original DME, as the OP on Pelican has, so that I am able to revert to stock at any time (or maybe to get the damned thing going!).
Simon
Simon
I don't think I'm missing the point, though I'm more than happy to be proved wrong. Let me explain further:
I can't take credit for developing the CDI on 944 solution (it was Rick), but it really isn't difficult; an MSD ignition module and 4 coils from a Japanese crotch-rocket (I think mine are GSXR coils). It was easier to integrate with my Autronic than the dissy ignition was in fact.
In terms of triggers I don't know what the MS supports. I do know that the S2 and Turbo use different systems so Motronics are either flexible or bespoked. For my Autronic I added a trigger to the front pulley and a reference sensor on the end of the cam shaft. I'd be surprised if the MS doesn't need an independent reference sensor as Motronic seems quite unusual in being able to run with only crank speed signals (the reference off the cam being half crank speed of course, hence telling the ECU which stroke the engine is on as well as where in the 360 degree crank rotation it is).
I'm not trying to put you off and I'd love to see a thread on progress if you go ahead, but I think it will be a lot of work and gains will be small.
- EMC get 190 bhp (I'm told) on the barn door and original ECU. That means 20-odd bhp comes from flowing, porting (and a remapped chip?).
- Given the above I doubt you'll see another 20bhp from changing the ECU and losing the AFM as that should be cumulative to the EMC changes if all were done and I think 45 bhp+ (or close to 30%) from an NA tune is unrealistic.
I can't take credit for developing the CDI on 944 solution (it was Rick), but it really isn't difficult; an MSD ignition module and 4 coils from a Japanese crotch-rocket (I think mine are GSXR coils). It was easier to integrate with my Autronic than the dissy ignition was in fact.
In terms of triggers I don't know what the MS supports. I do know that the S2 and Turbo use different systems so Motronics are either flexible or bespoked. For my Autronic I added a trigger to the front pulley and a reference sensor on the end of the cam shaft. I'd be surprised if the MS doesn't need an independent reference sensor as Motronic seems quite unusual in being able to run with only crank speed signals (the reference off the cam being half crank speed of course, hence telling the ECU which stroke the engine is on as well as where in the 360 degree crank rotation it is).
I'm not trying to put you off and I'd love to see a thread on progress if you go ahead, but I think it will be a lot of work and gains will be small.
sawood12
New member
Well there is a guy on Rennlist (Nize I think) who was massively advocating the Wolf 3D whenever a standalone thread came up to such an extent that he insisted you must be crazy to consider anything else - which went down well on Rennlist as you can imagine. He always said it was a true out of the box plug and play setup. Knowing how much work Rick did on his I PM'd him to confirm if it was and he confirmed that his car was essentially standard with stock turbo and AFM and it was literally a case of: remove DME & KLR, install Wolf3D and Safe guard, plug in stock harness plugs, turn key, drive off. He said upon order if you tell the chap your setup he'll pre-load maps to get you started, which Nize found to be pretty good. I think this company has modified the input of the Wolf and Safeguard so the stock harness plug can be used.
He has since upgraded to a MAP sensor and larger turbo (with boost control from the Wolf), though i'm not sure if he's taken it as far as Rick with the coil-on ignition. I think this is the link he provided me to the company in Aus:-
http://wolfems.cart.net.au/cat/3754.html
944 man
Active member
A couple of quick points: Alex told me that he gets about 185bhp from the engines. He said that the ports are excellent and cant be improved upon. We were talking about something else at the time, but I believe that the bulk of the gain comes from optimising the original (series 2 / ML3.1 with matching airflow meter, also fitted to series one cars) Motronic ECU.
Dont be offended when I said that I think that youre missing the point: I mean that I think that youre failing to see that it is the original ECU that is the principal handicap that these engines have.
The S and the S2 both have a far better fuel and ignition control than the series one and series two 8v cars (ML2.1 as opposed to ML1./1.2 & ML3.1)
Simon
I'm not at all offended, in fact you might be right that I have missed the point as my understanding was that EMC's mods are "traditional" tuning, not management based, but if they do change the management then maybe you're right.
I'm not familiar with the Lux in any great detail, but is the EMS used is especially bad? Porsche only got 29bhp out of the 968 with better management, MAF and variable cam timing compared with the S2 (and I'd question if they really even got that having seen some dismal 968 dyno runs), which would also suggest to me that you're optimistic, taking things at face value.
I'm not familiar with the Lux in any great detail, but is the EMS used is especially bad? Porsche only got 29bhp out of the 968 with better management, MAF and variable cam timing compared with the S2 (and I'd question if they really even got that having seen some dismal 968 dyno runs), which would also suggest to me that you're optimistic, taking things at face value.
944 man
Active member
I think that Im going to buy a MegaSquirt V3 kit from the United States, along with a simulator, build them both and then take it from there. Another couple of hours with a Dremel and it can be fitted into a dead Motronic chassis and plug compatile. This way, if it turns out to be a hiding to nothing, then at least it hasnt been an expensive lesson.
Of course: if I was really looking for more power then Id be looking at a longtitudinal VAG 20v turbo.....
Simon
Of course: if I was really looking for more power then Id be looking at a longtitudinal VAG 20v turbo.....
Simon
When I had my old car it ran megasquirt, great bit of kit and a great price.
When the engine blew in my lux I was thinking about the 20v turbo, thinking how hard it would be to fit. But I think it would be too tall and if you moved it at an angle the turbo would hit the wing. I picked my old BAM (Audi TT 225bhp) engine with loom, ecu, clocks and keys for 1k so not bad money.
I can feel a new project coming on.......
When the engine blew in my lux I was thinking about the 20v turbo, thinking how hard it would be to fit. But I think it would be too tall and if you moved it at an angle the turbo would hit the wing. I picked my old BAM (Audi TT 225bhp) engine with loom, ecu, clocks and keys for 1k so not bad money.
I can feel a new project coming on.......
I know you can get fairly good numbers out of the VAG 20VT, and I haven't driven an IHI conversion for example, but one 350bhp Ibiza I knew was supremely unreliable (as well as not being any more powerful than a reasonably tuned 951) and in standard trim I've always been underwhelmed by the engine; classic modern light pressure turbo that runs out of puff up the revs. Potentially sounds quite nice though I guess.
Is that really the engine of choice to swap in? I guess I'd personally only look at a Chevy LS1 if I were transplanting.
Is that really the engine of choice to swap in? I guess I'd personally only look at a Chevy LS1 if I were transplanting.
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