Minty's First track outing (With me!)

[h_____]

So I've threatened this for a while, but finally booked a test session at Mallory Park this am. Track was dry and quiet, typical Mallory mix, a 1950s elite, an A45 (really), a britcar mustang, a couple of G50s Ginettas, and some ex-lemans ferrari (?!). Managed 44 laps of decent time. Comments on the experience.

Its kind of like a big heavy caterham in many ways. Turn-in with a trail braking was OK, but the car clearly understeers, and was shocking at hairpin. But I think we all knew that would be the case.

Car has plenty of power, out of the fast corners, but 2nd gear seemed very low for the hairpin, didnt fancy first though.

The brakes are shot! [] After the first session the rears were smoking quite a lot. The pedal went long after 20mins (but made H&T easier). And the front have major vibration, I was triggering the ABS (in the dry) quite a lot. Clearly not right. New disks / pads all around required I think. (After Brands?). So I lost confidence in the brakes and had a couple of minor issues at turn in to gerards and missed the hairpin a couple of times.

There were only a couple of times I got scared, once at the devils elbow (think mini bomb hole), turning the car in, it goes light then grips at the front, which rotated the back if I had too much lock on. No huge drama, but I did back off a bit then. Gerards was a good exercise in dialing out understeer, but the car can be adjusted on the throttle quite well (albeit, it was slower). I left lots of room on the exit of gerards where the bump is, for lack of on the limit trust.

Lap times, I got a best of 55.5 but could lap consistently in the 56 / 57s.. Optimal lap (from stringing best sectors together) wsa a 55.1, so kind of OK.

I still ran on the old S02s, and they were pretty horrible but communicative. I didnt bring a pump or tyre pressure gauge so they may be out a bit. So with the brakes sorted and decent rubber, I can imagine, knocking maybe upto 1sec off that. I guess the car is capable of more, but dont think I am yet. I can see there is time to found on the exit of gerards on through devils elbow, but I'm not brave enough yet.

Planning on going to Brands indy if the weather hold next wednesday. But will be cautious as still on grumbly brakes and old tyres.

Overal, the car is a joy to drive, or will be when its setup (geo, brakes, tyres, flat floor) in the interim it is quite entertaining, although it still seems to command a lot of respect. Photos to follow.

 

[h_____]

 

[h_____]

 

[Chrishazle]

ORIGINAL: h_____

Planning on going to Brands indy if the weather hold next wednesday. But will be cautious as still on grumbly brakes and old tyres.

Next Wednesday evening at Brands is the R25 monthly meet in the Kentagon, kickoff 7ish. See you there??

 

[carreraboy]

Nice one Hugh, sounds like a bit of set up, some decent tyres and bakes and you'll be 55sec round the Indy ... nice pics ... see you at Brands.[]

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

I notice you said you did'nt bring a tyre pressure gauge with you. You may find that an awful lot can be achieved by playing with the pressures alone. forgive me if i'm stating the obvious but after 20 laps without checking the pressures you will have almost certainly put too much pressure into the tyres ! Have to say i'm suprised at your comments on the brakes. Most RS are usually really good even with fairly worn kit. Maybe a fluid change might help and obviously get them checked for wear. The vibration i guess could be either the brakes or a tyre balance issue. A lot of people on here have complained about vibration from the disks when using certain pads.

 

[Ian964]

Glad you've got it on track, hope to see you at Brands next Wedensday (I've now booked for it).

As Lawrence says tyre pressures make a huge difference, especially at the back.Standard road pressure is 36 psi cold all round - on track about 30-32 hot seems to suit best, otherwise the rear especially starts sliding around. Also some decent track tyres and geo will help a lot - on R888s and enough neg camber the car should manage over 1.2G both laterally and under braking.

 

[ChrisW]

Good to see you opening up the box Hugh []

I was having a play with a Superlight at Rockingham on Sunday --- a rather shocking experience with two inches of water in the seat and the track so wet that you can't clear it under braking, but with Tim's help got it really moving in the afternoon.

Mega [][][]

 

[h_____]

Laurence you are of course completely right. My kit consisted of a roll of tank tape for the day! If wednesday works out, I'll certainly sort pressures. I kind of knew that my driving is the limiting factor at the moment (oh and the brakes). Mallory is tricky circuit for the brakes because its so bumpy, a bit like Oulton. I was getting vibration from high speed, and finding that the car was then wandering around around in the braking zone. It did still stop, buy my braking distances were (I think ) a bit long. If I have time, I'm going to compare the braking that Chris, Mat and kevin got, to see how bad it is. You are right about the fluid too, pedal went soft after 1st session, but then stayed at that spongy level, and the car continued to stop. I'm sure pads/disks and fluid will transform it. I can see the disks are ridged at the front, which must be the cause. Again, we knew this when we bought it.

Ian, if I can make next week, would be good to catch up with you and the car. I'll check what g I managed yesterday, not sure I was making 1.2g in any direction. I'll be keen to get some time out with you for comparison. and to have a good nose around the car.


Editted to add TSL shows a 993 RS last year in the AMOC series doing 54.5 in quali. So there or thereabouts I guess is the phrase. That said, it does show a 2.7RS in the 53s, and a DB4 even lower!

And Chris, pleased you've had a go in the superlight, great little cars arent they? Although first introduction in the wet doesnt sound so great, without the weight, they are pretty slow in the wet comparitively speaking. The joys of an open top car huh? I drilled holes in the bottom of the floor of mine, to let the water out!![]

 

[Steve Brookes]

Glad to hear you've finally got the car out on track Hugh []. The first time is always going to be a fact finding mission and I'm sure it will all get better from here. And I think we should look at getting a bunch of us down to Mallory next year...nice central location and a track that many of us will have not driven before. last time I was there messers Sheene and Roberts were blasting round in the transatlantic trophy []

 

[oldtimer]

Hi H , the brakes are a key component for a 964RS as they allow you to have an aggressive driving style and free use of the RH pedal.

Just been re-reading your opening mail .....on a dry track ( smooth) and with grippy rubber you should not normally cause ABS to come in , so either just the bumps or maybe it was because of the garage queen rubber that it did []

... fronts normally do all the work and get much hotter than rears so for example cracked front disks are more likely than cracked rears , if the rears are smoking that's outside of my experience but rubber marbles sticking on the exhaust system can cause similar effect []

.... whip the front wheels off rotate the hubs and do a rough test for runout on disks to see if warped..[8|]

.....bit more difficult to do this at rear , both rear wheels need to be off ground because of LSD

... if you are mechanically proficient whip the pads out to examine what you have got....

Good luck at BH , you will need brakes for Paddock Hill Bend but you knew that []

 

[timarnold]

ORIGINAL: h_____
And Chris, pleased you've had a go in the superlight, great little cars arent they? Although first introduction in the wet doesnt sound so great, without the weight, they are pretty slow in the wet comparitively speaking. The joys of an open top car huh? I drilled holes in the bottom of the floor of mine, to let the water out!![]

We were on Avon CR500's which aren't too bad in the wet. The lack of weight does make it more difficult in the wet for sure, but there was nothing much that was faster through the twisty sections, we only got mullered by more powerful cars on the long straights.

This pic off BaT's site shows how wet it was first thing... I ended up wearing most of that puddle! That's Chris in the passenger seat wearing his nice new Arai! It was great fun in the wet though as well as useful for Chris... I was able to demonstrate putting the car sideways with opposite lock up to the stops, controlling it only with the throttle on a couple of occasions. []

 

[Damen]

Hugh

I am fairly familar with Mallory. Anything under 60 seconds is quick and anything under 55 seconds is fast and quicker than that is very, very impressive.

The DB4 you refer to is what's known as a DB4 lightwight. There were approximately 20 built from the early 80s through to the early 90s, most but not all were done by R S Williams (who ran the Ecosse Spice C2 team who were World Sports Car Champions in 1986, and the Aston Martin Nimrod team and later the AMR1 (Aston Martins last proper works cars)). These are under 1000 kg dry, run ballast to attain 1000 kgs to make them legal in the championship they run in and most now have 4.7 litre engines, with honest bhp of north of 400 hp (a standard DB4 is 3.7 litres and regardless of what you read elsewhere is about 190 bhp at best). A DB4 lightweight is a significantly faster car than any 964 or 993 RS. The best time done by a DB4 lightweight around Mallory in 50 seconds, the car was driven by Jerry Marshall and that was about 7 years ago.

Damen

 

[h_____]

Trying to peice replies to everyone....

Oldtimer - I'm sure you are right about the brakes, I'll know for sure, when I've replaced them, hoping then that the ABS will keep out of the way, certainly when went around with Chris he had decent retardation and I dont recall the ABS kicking in at all, even on the bumpy bit down to dear leap. Now you mention it, rubber burning on the exhaust is much more likely than rear brakes - that's good news. I'll check rrunout and the pad material before brands, but wont get a chance to swap disks/pads. So far its looking wet so I might skip the day yet. Otherwise, I'll just leave some time in the braking areas. I should be able to jack the whole car to check the rears.

Chris/Tim - that looks horrific, yikes, thats real wet!! Usually a heavy/ powerfull car will be quicker in the wet, I guess the day was full of trackdayers in road cars, so they exercise caution. But an M3 on decent rubber should out run a CR500 shod caterham at most circuits. A team of BMWs won the birkett this year, due it being wet, they mullered the favourite Caterham team (not mine!!) who were also on wets. Interestingly the second placed team where mallocks with wets and downforce. Sounds like you guys had a great day though. Can Chris run the clubbie on the lock stops now? [], you'll have to show me that one.!!!

Damon - very interesting about the Aston, they are quite some car (considering they were built in the 60s), albeit they sound highly developed now. The only comparison I had was my 120bhp caterham which will do a 52/3 around Mallory. But I recon 2 secs of that is sheer bravery based on the cheapness of the car, and kind on the limit handling!! The AMOC intermarque looks like an exciting series, might go spectate a bit on that next year.

 

[timarnold]

ORIGINAL: h_____
Chris/Tim - that looks horrific, yikes, thats real wet!! Usually a heavy/ powerfull car will be quicker in the wet, I guess the day was full of trackdayers in road cars, so they exercise caution. But an M3 on decent rubber should out run a CR500 shod caterham at most circuits. A team of BMWs won the birkett this year, due it being wet, they mullered the favourite Caterham team (not mine!!) who were also on wets. Interestingly the second placed team where mallocks with wets and downforce. Sounds like you guys had a great day though. Can Chris run the clubbie on the lock stops now? [], you'll have to show me that one.!!!

It was a Book a Track day Hugh, there were all sorts of machinery out, a Ginetta G50 race car, various road cars... M3's, Evo's, Scooby's, Elise's, a Skyline, RX7, to name a few... a SEAT Cupra Cup car, several different Caterhams, a few Radicals... quite a mix... There were a variety of Caterhams, some R400's and R500's, some on full race wets, and Roadsports... we had a mere Superlight with 125 bhp so top speeds were the weak point, but through the twisty bits it was as quick as anything. The cars that do have a wet weather advantage over Caterhams tend to be those with dynamic stability control, ABS, traction control and anti-skid control (à la M3).... but it's more fun doing it yourself!! [8D]

I don't know whether Chris would want to risk putting the CS against the lock stops! Certainly not at Oulton! [] It would depend where (lots of space preferred!)... but it can be done. It's just that big lump of metal Porsche stick in the boot that makes it a bit trickier when the back gets close to the point of no return! It's easy with a Caterham in the wet though... I just slowed it a bit more than usual going into the hairpin to ensure good front-end grip and as soon as the nose was going towards the apex, nailed the throttle, whacked on a load of opposite lock until it hit the stops (which isn't very far!), then just modulated the throttle to steer it... you just have to make sure you wind the lock off again a bit rapido when the rears start to grip again, otherwise it'll spit you round the other way!

 

[h_____]

ORIGINAL: Ian964

Glad you've got it on track, hope to see you at Brands next Wedensday (I've now booked for it).

As Lawrence says tyre pressures make a huge difference, especially at the back.Standard road pressure is 36 psi cold all round - on track about 30-32 hot seems to suit best, otherwise the rear especially starts sliding around. Also some decent track tyres and geo will help a lot - on R888s and enough neg camber the car should manage over 1.2G both laterally and under braking.

Can manage 1.2g in cornering, but not in braking. Also shows, I'm clearly not using the tyres enough on corner entry!

 

[timarnold]

ORIGINAL: Damen
The DB4 you refer to is what's known as a DB4 lightwight.... These are under 1000 kg dry, run ballast to attain 1000 kgs to make them legal in the championship they run in and most now have 4.7 litre engines, with honest bhp of north of 400 hp (a standard DB4 is 3.7 litres and regardless of what you read elsewhere is about 190 bhp at best). A DB4 lightweight is a significantly faster car than any 964 or 993 RS. The best time done by a DB4 lightweight around Mallory in 50 seconds, the car was driven by Jerry Marshall and that was about 7 years ago.

"A DB4 lightweight is a significantly faster car than any 964 or 993 RS" [8|] I'm not sure I can entirely agree with that! My mate Howard has been instructing a guy (J-P Frottier) who now owns that exact DB4 previously driven by Gerry Marshall (which btw has a 4.5 litre engine producing (exactly) 400 bhp according to Alan Smith who runs it). He should have raced it in the AMOC Classic and Intermarque races at Oulton a few weeks back but broke the gearbox before qualifying. However, he did a track day with it a few days before the meeting, with Howard, to improve his driving and learn more about the circuit. He ended up doing 1.58's (on the test day - running on R888's btw) which turned out to be only 1.5 seconds slower that the quickest DB4 in the race, which did a 1.56.7 in qualifying.

Now comparing that to an RS, I know for a fact that I have done a 1.56 in a (slightly uprated) 964 RS at Oulton, and to support that my friend Marcus Carniel who races a 964 C2 in the Porsche Club Championship has done a best of 1.56.7 in that (exactly the same as the DB4 mentioned above).The C2 spec'd up for the Club Championship has standard power (250bhp) and weighs 1205kg (if I remember correctly) and with the permitted uprated suspension, is effectively, as near as damn it, an RS! So I wouldn't say a DB4 Lightweight is faster than an RS at all, let alone significantly.

 

[Damen]

Tim

Jerry Marshall, we are talking a few years ago in the Marsh Plant DB4, and Phil Bennett in Chris Kings' car have both done much closer to a 1:50 at Oulton Park.

Damen

 

[timarnold]

Damen

It's Gerry Marshall with a "G"!

But you can't realistically use that as a comparison. I don't know what tyres the historics ran on 7 years ago, possibly bespoke race tyres (slicks even), not R888's (road/track day) which is what they use in the AMOC series today. Tyres can make a huge difference, slicks being worth up to 5 seconds a lap, for example. Also, Gerry Marshall was one of the fastest saloon car drivers in history. And what times were 964 RS's running to the same rules doing 7 years ago with world class drivers in them? The current day provides the more accurate comparison with the cars running on similar spec tyres and driven by drivers of similar skill levels - which would suggest they are capable of very similar lap times.

 

[vitesse]

Tim,
Those were the days,in the heady 60's chatting to Gerry;everybody wanted to when he was driving the Firenza dropsnoot-Ive got some colour slides of those days when Nick didn't like the engines revving in the paddock.[]